Kraton 12s Arrma Kraton MGM/Castle

[Overpowerrc]

Nice! On a side note...with my 12s setup, I used the OSE connectors and these are great! They are hard to find with the current supplier shortages in China, but I would recommend them to anyone that has concerns about current ratings, especially for speed runs.

They offer QS8 and QS10 :

http://www.qsrccn-hobbies.com/xptj/info_2.aspx?itemid=390&lcid=104

http://www.qsrccn-hobbies.com/xptj/info_2.aspx?itemid=553&lcid=104

I just got some from my buddy that had ordered a ton. He is WFO RC RACING on Facebook he may be out but will get more soon

 

[Deepdish32]

To this day I have never seen anyone go REALLY fast with an MGM ESC (like over 140mph) Anyone going over 140mph is using Castle Creations.

yeah very true. They limit amps to 250 on their 8s esc's but they are upfront with that. Castle in the other with the XL2 which is my favorite 8s esc is probably the best 8s esc out there. But when castle released the XLX claiming to be a upgrade from XL2 was actually a lie. They detuned the esc because of a bunch of people were creating very high ripple spikes damaging their XL2 and sending into for warranty. Hopefully castle's 12s sensored esc is awesome hoping atleast 400amps on 12s.

 

[Steel_Rain]

Hopefully castle's 12s sensored esc is awesome hoping atleast 400amps on 12s.

I was hoping for 500a on 12s-14s for headroom. Castle releases a new high powered ESC once every decade...so let's hope for something big.

 

[LibertyMKiii]

I was hoping for 500a on 12s-14s for headroom. Castle releases a new high powered ESC once every decade...so let's hope for something big.

For either scenario how do you plan to put down 20+hp without breaking absolutely every driveline part?
Also there are no consumer available LiPos outputting more than 300amps for more than a brief few seconds.

400a * 50v = 20,000 watts (less 20% for efficiency) = 16,000 watts
16kW / 746 = 21.44 hp

 

[Deepdish32]

For either scenario how do you plan to put down 20+hp without breaking absolutely every driveline part?
Also there are no consumer available LiPos outputting more than 300amps for more than a brief few seconds.

400a * 50v = 20,000 watts (less 20% for efficiency) = 16,000 watts
16kW / 746 = 21.44 hp

Honestly with that wattage with such high voltage pressure your are pretty much turning a low kv such as a 800kv close to a 45000RPM spinning machine monster. I am sure low end torque will be still hefty. Jut there are always settings to kick the real power into higher RPMs. I have MGM data for The hefty 12s TP 5870 800kv 6 pole D wind motor showings amps as high as 1000 with constant around 350 for few seconds with powerhobby 6s 8000mah packs in series. That's why I would perfer 400amp limit. The data might not be 100% accurate but it does give me a ballpark range

 

[Steel_Rain]

For either scenario how do you plan to put down 20+hp without breaking absolutely every driveline part?
Also there are no consumer available LiPos outputting more than 300amps for more than a brief few seconds.

400a * 50v = 20,000 watts (less 20% for efficiency) = 16,000 watts
16kW / 746 = 21.44 hp

Agreed with your math.

But, as my original post pointed out, Castle doesn't release large scale (1/6th - 1/5th) ECS's very often. So when was the first Castle XL released? I used the waybackmachine.org and could find it as far back as July '2011 on Castle's site, so about 9 years ago. How many 6s rtr vehicles were around in 2011? How many 8s rtr box stock RC's were around at the same time? How many speed run vehicles exceeding 100+ mph were around?

The world has changed but many folks are still using the XLX.

My point is that based on the past, Castle makes great equipment, but the release timeline doesn't often match the want of the consumer or new products to market. Asking for headroom now, we would hope to use the upcoming ESC for about a decade, right? So if it's 2020 and we have box stock vehicles like the K8S, X-maxx and speedrun cars like the limitless and XO1 that can do 150mph+...what we will have 10 years from now? Battery chemistry (lithium-sulphur as an example) is evolving in the private sector more now then it ever has prior. In 2-3 years, you will see energy densities increase and charge times decrease.

I think we all expect the hobby to grow. Can we expect a RTR 12s, or even 14/16s model in 1/5 or larger from a big name brand? I think so.

10 years ago, I would not have expected a 8s rtr from anyone. Now...commonplace...likely with more coming from Arrma, Traxxas and Losi.

 

[jondilly1974]

I guess I don’t understand both the need for higher voltage AND huge amp limits? Why do you need both? If you just increase the voltage, you don’t need to increase the amp limit too. Increasing the amp draw has drawbacks. As you increase amp draw, you need thicker wire and traces to handle the heat created. The same isn't true when adding voltage alone. Most wire can handle 600V.

In the end, the motor pulls watts. Sure the voltage determines the final RPM, but in general your determining factor is watts. If a motor pulls (theoretically) 300a @ 25v, thats 7,500W. Now run that same setup on 33v and you get 9,900W. You don’t need to compound it with added amperage too.

So asking for a 14S 500A capable ESC is really odd to me. You’ll be running 0 awg wire soon. ??‍

 

[bicketybam]

I hope all of this is related to speed running the K8S because you certainly don't need that kind of power to bash it ?

 

[Steel_Rain]

I guess I don’t understand both the need for higher voltage AND huge amp limits? Why do you need both? If you just increase the voltage, you don’t need to increase the amp limit too. Increasing the amp draw has drawbacks. As you increase amp draw, you need thicker wire and traces to handle the heat created. The same isn't true when adding voltage alone. Most wire can handle 600V.

In the end, the motor pulls watts. Sure the voltage determines the final RPM, but in general your determining factor is watts. If a motor pulls (theoretically) 300a @ 25v, thats 7,500W. Now run that same setup on 33v and you get 9,900W. You don’t need to compound it with added amperage too.

So asking for a 14S 500A capable ESC is really odd to me. You’ll be running 0 awg wire soon. ??‍

Back to my original post...look at what has changed in the industry regarding this over the last 10 years. How many of us would think a 200amp ESC with 10 awg (8awg included as spare to your point) such as the MAX5 would be so commonplace?

Agreed on the amp draw and how that theory applies. But I also feel that we may, at some point, get into even larger scale vehicles such as the MTXL or Raminator as more commonplace. They require immense toque and hence an increase in current (amps) in the power electronics "total" circuit. Yes, voltage can increase RPM's as you stated. The ability for the controller and motor to continue to meet the load expectations is the main requirement for the increase of current (amps) within the circuit that I was referencing. Then we have future speed run cars that required huge current requirements the larger and faster they become. Yes, this takes heavy wiring along with more cooling (among other things).

Just to reiterate my point...I'm talking about future technologies, not today's.

 

[CptDestructo]

Hello everyone this is my first post, so please if there is anything I should correct just let me know. I would like to share and let everyone know that the kraton 8s platform is great, the drivetrain is strong, wheel base length and width is perfect to handle 50volt 12s systems. Yes the stock chassis has issues but there are aftermarket 6061 and 7075 alloy chassis and bracing available, not to mention Arrma just released the 1.5 version with better chassis bracing. With this current 12s Kraton build, I have worked closely with MGM compro and Castle Creations to have the first working 12s sensored Castle 2028 800kv system. The MGM X2pro 25063-3 esc I used is not cheap but comes with Data monitoring, a ton of customized settings, sensor capabilities, 4 vehicle profiles, and 5 year warranty. The Castle Creations 12s 2028 800kv sensored Ywind 4 pole motor won it for this build over the aggressive amp hungry TPPower 12s 5870 800kv sensorless Dwind 6pole motor. The TP motor was ruff the 6 pole magnetism resistance was harsh and the motor being sensorless it was like the power was just uncontrollable because esc doesn't know the motors position from a stop to a go. Rhe 12s to motor already killed 2 ZTW/HOBBYSTAR 12s esc's in a matter of seconds. It worked with the MGM but the 20 hp 15000 watt motor was just too much for a 30 pound car. I always liked the castle 2028 800kv sensorless motor with the ZTW/Hobbystar 12s esc in my x maxx but I wanted to try the new sensored version with the MGM esc. All I can is wow just wow Castle 2028 800kv sensored on 12s with the MGM is the perfect match just check out the footage in you tube links. I used OSE 8mm antispark connectors with two Powerhobby 6s 100c 8000 mah packs and they deliver supply power no problem and have long runtimes with this build, but mainly because of the efficient sensored esc motor combination . I added a x maxx heatsink for the castle 2028 motor with a 50×50×28 40CFM fan but with all the bashing in the videos the sensored 12s 2028 motor would not get hot at all with the powerful cooling fan off. The motor is quite, super smooth, and takes whatever power the MGM esc lets through its Transistor switches. I include a snapshot of the amp data from esc and amps reached as high as 800amps which is crazy. I used a mod 1.0 33t pinion and 47t stock spur in these videos and I cant believe how fast this kraton is with mild gearing. In one of the pictures I changed the spur to a Arrma infraction spur 39t but I have not ran that gear setup yet, I expect to gain atleast 10mph extra offroad. I am using a 30mm spaced unpolished motor mount from ebay. M2C racing polish 7075 chassis. My own custom built 6061 3/8×3/4"inch rectangle alloy for top brace. Proline badland bead lock wheels, I drilled out the bore with step bit to fit the kraton spindle. I am just happy with the outcome of this build and the fact that castle is releasing a sensored 12s esc soon is just great. I do believe 12s 800kv sensored setups will be the future for big scale R/C's. Please check out the footage, more videos and post to come. Please share your 12s, 10s or 8s kraton builds. If anyone has any suggestions please comment. Well thanks for letting me share this post.

WOW, I love that setup with that MGM controller. I was seriously thinking about getting one for my 12s build, but was a little out of the price range I was looking at.

Do you think you will hook up you TP motor eventually to try some speed runs? I’d like to see how the two motors compare. Can you post some of the graphs from the MGM? Voltage, AMPs, RPM, throttle overlays with your current setup?

 

[Deepdish32]

I hope all of this is related to speed running the K8S because you certainly don't need that kind of power to bash it ?

What is you definition of bash? To me a speed runs is lining up and doing runs back and forth chasing gps times. Me personally I like off road full throttle mashing around on open fields with the Kraton 8s platfom. So i guess you can call it best of both worlds the driving style i prefer, and the extra wouldn't hurt for the intentions I want it for. If i was hanging with Kevin Tobalt launching the r/c 300 feet in the air or going 70 mph into a wall intentionally i would just want the most basic esc/motor combo

 

[bicketybam]

What is you definition of bash? To me a speed runs is lining up and doing runs back and forth chasing gps times. Me personally I like off road full throttle mashing around on open fields with the Kraton 8s platfom. So i guess you can call it best of both worlds the driving style i prefer, and the extra wouldn't hurt for the intentions I want it for. If i was hanging with Kevin Tobalt launching the r/c 300 feet in the air or going 70 mph into a wall intentionally i would just want the most basic esc/motor combo

Well we all have our opinions. To me, running full speed in an open field is not bashing. It's speed running off road. What @RC DUDE81 and @Rich Duperbash do is bashing. What I do is bashing. What @Notorious J does is bashing. What probably 90% of the people here do is bashing. But that's just my take and I'm not the authority. Do whatever blows your hair back ???

 

[Deepdish32]

WOW, I love that setup with that MGM controller. I was seriously thinking about getting one for my 12s build, but was a little out of the price range I was looking at.

Do you think you will hook up you TP motor eventually to try some speed runs? I’d like to see how the two motors compare. Can you post some of the graphs from the MGM? Voltage, AMPs, RPM, throttle overlays with your current setup?

Thanks man, I put a lot of though process before purchasing all of my esc's, and motors. This setup took a little extra time, because i decided to go with the aggressive amp hog 150000 watt tp 5870 800kv motor after. Well that motor pretty much killed 2 ZTW esc's without even getting on the throttle, and i knew the motor was the issue because i had no issue running the sensorless castle 2028 800kv with same esc's. I was surprised because the tp specs showed the motor was 190 amps constant and 290 amps constant. So i pulled the trigger and got the MGM 250 amp constant/ 350 max amp 12s esc. And wow the tp motor kept shutting down the esc. Mgm stated after looking at data files that the motor is asking for too much amps. So i adjusted the start up power that way the power can gradually increase, and wow once i would get rolling about 40 mph and hit the throttle the car would loose control on a grass field. This was in a x maxx not the kraton. I then noticed in the data files the motor was pulling 1000 amps easy, went back and forth with MGM and they suggested i get different esc or motor. I was about to use the sensor-less castle 2028, then castle released the new sensored version. I quickly sold the sensorless motor and purchased a new sensored motor from powerhobby which is a licensed dealer for castle products. The new motor arrived and i though how will this setup work in the kraton. So i threw the mgm and new castle motor in kraton, i had a little trouble getting the esc to detect the sensors. Mgm helped me go through sensor learning mode then the esc automatically went in sensor mode once the learning process was done. Took the kraton out with the 12s sensored system all working and bashed it back and forth. Motor would no get hot. Esc data showed amps around 850 max. At this point for me to run the tp motor successfully on 12s i would probably need a real big official 1/5 truck, the kraton is not enough r/c for that motor. I will look for the data in my jam packed file cluttered laptop and post later for you.

Well we all have our opinions. To me, running full speed in an open field is not bashing. It's speed running off road. What @RC DUDE81 and @Rich Duperbash do is bashing. What I do is bashing. What @Notorious J does is bashing. What probably 90% of the people here do is bashing. But that's just my take and I'm not the authority. Do whatever blows your hair back ???

I guess when it comes to Arrma's quote "don't just bash, Blast", I think i am more on the blast part. But I do throw in a max 5 here and there with a tp 1460kv and jump the hell out of it at construction sites, I did upgrade to M2c racing chassis and made my own 6061 chassis brace for it. But yeah with this 12s system with its huge lipos you definitely gotta limit the bashing to a certain extent

 

[Deepdish32]

I guess I don’t understand both the need for higher voltage AND huge amp limits? Why do you need both? If you just increase the voltage, you don’t need to increase the amp limit too. Increasing the amp draw has drawbacks. As you increase amp draw, you need thicker wire and traces to handle the heat created. The same isn't true when adding voltage alone. Most wire can handle 600V.

In the end, the motor pulls watts. Sure the voltage determines the final RPM, but in general your determining factor is watts. If a motor pulls (theoretically) 300a @ 25v, thats 7,500W. Now run that same setup on 33v and you get 9,900W. You don’t need to compound it with added amperage too.

So asking for a 14S 500A capable ESC is really odd to me. You’ll be running 0 awg wire soon. ??‍

It would really matter on the motor winding. A delta wind 6 pole and higher motor would demand crazy amps and frequency switching from the esc vs a y wind 4 pole motor. The esc is just a frequency gate between lipos and motor. A sensored 400amp 12s-16s esc seems logical a 500 amp version would be even better for extreme users.

 

[jondilly1974]

Thanks man, I put a lot of though process before purchasing all of my esc's, and motors. This setup took a little extra time, because i decided to go with the aggressive amp hog 150000 watt tp 5870 800kv motor after. Well that motor pretty much killed 2 ZTW esc's without even getting on the throttle, and i knew the motor was the issue because i had no issue running the sensorless castle 2028 800kv with same esc's. I was surprised because the tp specs showed the motor was 190 amps constant and 290 amps constant. So i pulled the trigger and got the MGM 250 amp constant/ 350 max amp 12s esc. And wow the tp motor kept shutting down the esc. Mgm stated after looking at data files that the motor is asking for too much amps. So i adjusted the start up power that way the power can gradually increase, and wow once i would get rolling about 40 mph and hit the throttle the car would loose control on a grass field. This was in a x maxx not the kraton. I then noticed in the data files the motor was pulling 1000 amps easy, went back and forth with MGM and they suggested i get different esc or motor. I was about to use the sensor-less castle 2028, then castle released the new sensored version. I quickly sold the sensorless motor and purchased a new sensored motor from powerhobby which is a licensed dealer for castle products. The new motor arrived and i though how will this setup work in the kraton. So i threw the mgm and new castle motor in kraton, i had a little trouble getting the esc to detect the sensors. Mgm helped me go through sensor learning mode then the esc automatically went in sensor mode once the learning process was done. Took the kraton out with the 12s sensored system all working and bashed it back and forth. Motor would no get hot. Esc data showed amps around 850 max. At this point for me to run the tp motor successfully on 12s i would probably need a real big official 1/5 truck, the kraton is not enough r/c for that motor. I will look for the data in my jam packed file cluttered laptop and post later for you.

I guess when it comes to Arrma's quote "don't just bash, Blast", I think i am more on the blast part. But I do throw in a max 5 here and there with a tp 1460kv and jump the hell out of it at construction sites, I did upgrade to M2c racing chassis and made my own 6061 chassis brace for it. But yeah with this 12s system with its huge lipos you definitely gotta limit the bashing to a certain extent

Is 150,000W a typo?

 

[Deepdish32]

Is 150,000W a typo?

Yes definitely a typo. I meant 15,000 watt

 

[jondilly1974]

Yes definitely a typo. I meant 15,000 watt

I was like, I hope you have one of these...

 

[Saber Rider]

Ever heard of an Lehner Motor? I have one in my Kraton 6s blx on 8s. With it inside you can fly to the moon

 

[Deepdish32]

Ever heard of an Lehner Motor? I have one in my Kraton 6s blx on 8s. With it inside you can fly to the moon

Lehner works with MGM closely. A Lehner motor paired with MGM esc is just dominance. But they can definitely be spit up and still work good separately. Any videos of this lehner powered rocket you could share?

 

[Saber Rider]

Not yet. At the moment in Germany we have Corona and are not allowed to go outside. I will post one later this seasion.