Limitless Battery storage

JustAnOutcast

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I have one more quick question, what should I do with the batteries I'm not using for the winter , do I just store them or discharge them with charger
I’ve heard, in addition to putting them in storage mode as @Warby suggested, you should do storage mode on them monthly. But don’t take this monthly thing as fact, hopefully others will chime in to confirm or disqualify this, so much incorrect info out there… definitely put them in storage mode though.

Also, extremely important to consider Where you will store your batteries. Most agree a bat safe or ammo can (properly modified to allow venting) are best. Lots of threads on this (some terrifying) if you’d like to investigate.
 
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Diem Turner

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I’ve heard, in addition to putting them in storage mode as @Warby suggested, you should do storage mode on them monthly. But don’t take this monthly thing as fact, hopefully others will chime in to confirm or disqualify this, so much incorrect info out there… definitely put them in storage mode though.

Also, extremely important to consider Where you will store your batteries. Most agree a bat safe or ammo can (properly modified to allow venting) are best. Lots of threads on this (some terrifying) if you’d like to investigate.
If the battery is healthy, there's no need to for any monthly procedures. A lipo should stay at storage voltage in a stable state, for all intents and purposes, in perpetuity. You can leave it sitting there for five years, come back and the voltage will not have changed to any appreciable degree.
 

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If the battery is healthy, there's no need to for any monthly procedures. A lipo should stay at storage voltage in a stable state, for all intents and purposes, in perpetuity. You can leave it sitting there for five years, come back and the voltage will not have changed to any appreciable degree.
I was wondering about this also. Thanks again.
 

JustAnOutcast

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If the battery is healthy, there's no need to for any monthly procedures. A lipo should stay at storage voltage in a stable state, for all intents and purposes, in perpetuity. You can leave it sitting there for five years, come back and the voltage will not have changed to any appreciable degree.
I felt like the monthly thing was fishy when I wrote it, so I put the caveat about checking… anyway I found the source and had misunderstood what it said, here’s a section from the Traxxas website.

“Store your batteries in a cool, dry place. If you used LiPo batteries in your vehicle until the Low-Voltage Detection activated, your batteries will be nearing their low-voltage threshold. LiPo batteries should not be left in this depleted state. If you plan to reuse the LiPo batteries that day, recharge them soon after using them. If you do not plan to reuse the batteries immediately, use the Store Mode on your Traxxas iD® charger to prepare them for storage. For optimal performance and long battery life, you should place your batteries in Store Mode once a month.

No doubt it means if you’re using the battery regularly, a storage mode charge now and then will help it.

Here’s the full article, good info in general about batteries but a lot of Traxxas specific stuff too.

https://traxxas.com/battery-basics
 

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If the battery is healthy, there's no need to for any monthly procedures. A lipo should stay at storage voltage in a stable state, for all intents and purposes, in perpetuity. You can leave it sitting there for five years, come back and the voltage will not have changed to any appreciable degree.
I've heard varying things about needing to frequently storage charge lipos. As far as I'm aware, all batteries self discharge. The extent or rate of the self discharge is really the question here. Lipos and li-ion do have a low self-discharge rate compared to lots of other batteries, so they should - SHOULD - be non-volatile on the shelf for quite some time. However, it can't hurt to check if they've been sitting for a long time to validate. I had one lipo that I hadn't used in probably 6 months or a year. Check it a few weeks ago. Can't remember what I storage charged it to, but two of the cells were 3.7 volts and some change, the other one was 1.4v... :oops: I may have my dumb moments, but I know I definitely didn't storage charge it to 1.4v :p
 

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I've heard varying things about needing to frequently storage charge lipos. As far as I'm aware, all batteries self discharge. The extent or rate of the self discharge is really the question here. Lipos and li-ion do have a low self-discharge rate compared to lots of other batteries, so they should - SHOULD - be non-volatile on the shelf for quite some time. However, it can't hurt to check if they've been sitting for a long time to validate. I had one lipo that I hadn't used in probably 6 months or a year. Check it a few weeks ago. Can't remember what I storage charged it to, but two of the cells were 3.7 volts and some change, the other one was 1.4v... :oops: I may have my dumb moments, but I know I definitely didn't storage charge it to 1.4v :p
Your case illustrates why I hedged my statement with the caveat "if the battery is healthy". That pack just had a bad cell.

I'm not sure where you got your information regarding lipos, but they definitely do not self discharge - again with the qualifier "if the battery is healthy". Take into consideration that it's not uncommon for lipos that you've purchased, to have been sitting around either in warehouses, in transit, on shelves, in storage, etc. for 6-12 months. Even 1-2 years is not uncommon. If you have a battery that's bleeding off voltage over time as it rests at storage charge, then you can be certain that there's something not right with the battery. You might find that the IR of that one cell is way out of whack compared to the other two. Or the separator was damaged allowing energy to leech off. Healthy cells at storage charge are, essentially, in stasis or equilibrium and won't lose any voltage. When I say "any" I'm not saying that the cells remain at the exact voltage the entire time. They may drift a few milliohms but, for all intents and purposes, it's no appreciable or meaningful change in voltage.
 

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Your case illustrates why I hedged my statement with the caveat "if the battery is healthy". That pack just had a bad cell.

I'm not sure where you got your information regarding lipos, but they definitely do not self discharge - again with the qualifier "if the battery is healthy". Take into consideration that it's not uncommon for lipos that you've purchased, to have been sitting around either in warehouses, in transit, on shelves, in storage, etc. for 6-12 months. Even 1-2 years is not uncommon. If you have a battery that's bleeding off voltage over time as it rests at storage charge, then you can be certain that there's something not right with the battery. You might find that the IR of that one cell is way out of whack compared to the other two. Or the separator was damaged allowing energy to leech off. Healthy cells at storage charge are, essentially, in stasis or equilibrium and won't lose any voltage. When I say "any" I'm not saying that the cells remain at the exact voltage the entire time. They may drift a few milliohms but, for all intents and purposes, it's no appreciable or meaningful change in voltage.
I understand what you mean about healthy batteries. If they aren't healthy, you can't predictably expect normal outcomes. But in turn, your point on my point further illustrates my point ;) :
I didn't know the battery was unhealthy until I checked. We'll call it a Schrodinger's Lipo situation.

Prior to, it had never self-discharged before. It had sat for extended periods before with observable ill-effects, so i had no reason to suspect poor battery health. Thus, a secondary part of the reason I would suggest checking is to validate health of your lipos. But regarding self discharge for healthy cells, it does happen. Albeit "relatively slowly".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discharge
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-802b-what-does-elevated-self-discharge-do
https://www.dnkpower.com/myth-or-fact-lithium-ion-batteries-self-discharge/
 

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I’ve heard, in addition to putting them in storage mode as @Warby suggested, you should do storage mode on them monthly. But don’t take this monthly thing as fact, hopefully others will chime in to confirm or disqualify this, so much incorrect info out there… definitely put them in storage mode though.

Also, extremely important to consider Where you will store your batteries. Most agree a bat safe or ammo can (properly modified to allow venting) are best. Lots of threads on this (some terrifying) if you’d like to investigate.
Yeah they should be checked periodically. Usually needing a few minutes to bring them up and balanced again to storage volts. A good practice every month or so. Best way to keep your lipos healthy when stored for months not in use.
And older used lipos will lose voltage much faster. I set my storage volts specifically to 3.85 volts/cell.
Some would say that is splitting Hairs. IDK.:giggle:
Many new lipos out the box come this way. So I follow suit.
Even 3.9v/cell is not tragic and can work for older, well used lipo's, that lose voltage more quickly, in a months time just sitting there.
 

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Li-Ion and LiPo batteries do self-discharge[1], though the rate is quite low at room temperature and when starting at storage charge.

aging-storage.jpg


This represents a drop from 3.80V to maybe 3.75V over a year, so not a big deal, but I do notice it in all my batteries (good ones testing at 2-4mΩ/cell) when they're left sitting over the coldest winter months.

Edit: Whoops. The chart I posted is not the one I was looking for. This is permanent capacity loss during storage. The numbers for self-discharge are similar though and can be found in the battery university article linked above.

[1]https://www.theampeer.org/lipo-intro/lipo-intro.html
 
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I understand what you mean about healthy batteries. If they aren't healthy, you can't predictably expect normal outcomes. But in turn, your point on my point further illustrates my point ;) :
I didn't know the battery was unhealthy until I checked. We'll call it a Schrodinger's Lipo situation.

Prior to, it had never self-discharged before. It had sat for extended periods before with observable ill-effects, so i had no reason to suspect poor battery health. Thus, a secondary part of the reason I would suggest checking is to validate health of your lipos. But regarding self discharge for healthy cells, it does happen. Albeit "relatively slowly".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discharge
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-802b-what-does-elevated-self-discharge-do
https://www.dnkpower.com/myth-or-fact-lithium-ion-batteries-self-discharge/
lol...this definitely made my top ten favorite posts...maybe even top five. So we are our own confirmation bias...when we're not aware that we are.

But just to bookend this and to clarify what I meant: Yes, defective batteries can and do self-discharge. I could and should have been more precise about what I was saying. But I was talking about healthy batteries and I should have drawn a clearer distinction. I'm always operating under the assumption that the batteries I have in rotation are healthy and show no signs of instability. The way that I've operated my car over the last year, I'll typically focus on a particular pair of batteries for a number of weeks during which time the others are in short term storage. I think if a cell had an issue, it would become readily apparent by the time that pair is up to bat and gets hooked up to the charger. But that, of course, is a situation unique to my modus operandi.
Yeah they should be checked periodically. Usually needing a few minutes to bring them up and balanced again to storage volts. A good practice every month or so. Best way to keep your lipos healthy when stored for months not in use.
And older used lipos will lose voltage much faster. I set my storage volts specifically to 3.85 volts/cell.
Some would say that is splitting Hairs. IDK.:giggle:
Many new lipos out the box come this way. So I follow suit.
Even 3.9v/cell is not tragic and can work for older, well used lipo's, that lose voltage more quickly, in a months time just sitting there.
To that effect, I check my lipos periodically (sometimes even quite regularly) during times when I'm taking the car out regularly and, within that framework, I always pay close attention to any anomalous behavior, voltage disparities between cells for example or sudden changes in IR, etc. and keep mental track of anything odd. That battery would definitely be on notice and I'd more than likely inspect that battery on occasion if it were in long term storage...though more likely is that I'd decommission it.
Li-Ion and LiPo batteries do self-discharge[1], though the rate is quite low at room temperature and when starting at storage charge.

View attachment 263743

This represents a drop from 3.80V to maybe 3.75V over a year, so not a big deal, but I do notice it in all my batteries (good ones testing at 2-4mΩ/cell) when they're left sitting over the coldest winter months.

Edit: Whoops. The chart I posted is not the one I was looking for. This is permanent capacity loss during storage. The numbers for self-discharge are similar though and can be found in the battery university article linked above.

[1]https://www.theampeer.org/lipo-intro/lipo-intro.html
A drop off of 0.05V over the course of a year falls into the category of "no appreciable or meaningful change in voltage". But point taken :)
 

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I've heard varying things about needing to frequently storage charge lipos. As far as I'm aware, all batteries self discharge. The extent or rate of the self discharge is really the question here. Lipos and li-ion do have a low self-discharge rate compared to lots of other batteries, so they should - SHOULD - be non-volatile on the shelf for quite some time. However, it can't hurt to check if they've been sitting for a long time to validate. I had one lipo that I hadn't used in probably 6 months or a year. Check it a few weeks ago. Can't remember what I storage charged it to, but two of the cells were 3.7 volts and some change, the other one was 1.4v... :oops: I may have my dumb moments, but I know I definitely didn't storage charge it to 1.4v :p
I had some stuff happen and forgot some drone lipo batteries for 2 years in my shop full charged. Most of them didn't drop many volts but 3/4 of them swelled up and I got rid of them. Won't do that again.
 

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lol...this definitely made my top ten favorite posts...maybe even top five. So we are our own confirmation bias...when we're not aware that we are.

But just to bookend this and to clarify what I meant: Yes, defective batteries can and do self-discharge. I could and should have been more precise about what I was saying. But I was talking about healthy batteries and I should have drawn a clearer distinction. I'm always operating under the assumption that the batteries I have in rotation are healthy and show no signs of instability. The way that I've operated my car over the last year, I'll typically focus on a particular pair of batteries for a number of weeks during which time the others are in short term storage. I think if a cell had an issue, it would become readily apparent by the time that pair is up to bat and gets hooked up to the charger. But that, of course, is a situation unique to my modus operandi.

To that effect, I check my lipos periodically (sometimes even quite regularly) during times when I'm taking the car out regularly and, within that framework, I always pay close attention to any anomalous behavior, voltage disparities between cells for example or sudden changes in IR, etc. and keep mental track of anything odd. That battery would definitely be on notice and I'd more than likely inspect that battery on occasion if it were in long term storage...though more likely is that I'd decommission it.

A drop off of 0.05V over the course of a year falls into the category of "no appreciable or meaningful change in voltage". But point taken :)
If you lose .005/cell volts with a year in storage, untouched, consider yourself "Lucky". Because that is rare.:giggle:
 

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If you lose .005/cell volts with a year in storage, untouched, consider yourself "Lucky". Because that is rare.:giggle:
Even .05V is acceptable in my book. You don't risk damaging your batteries until you get down to the 3V/cell level. At a rate of 0.05V/year that gives you 16 years to figure out what you want to do with the battery. If a cell crashes after a couple of months, it was clearly already damaged and, probably, should have shown at least some sign of having a gimp leg (not necessarily, but more than likely).
 
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