Outcast Broken M2C Hinge Pins??

[jkflow]

On the pins here in question specifically, you can always order yourself some stock O1 tool steel rods and cut to length.
3ft for ~ $5. These are not M2C specific, they to crack/split because they are tool steel not because they are 'M2C'.
I have yet to break any of mine, but I did get replacements already, it will happen.

@Greengaunja I'm with you on these fake or overly tolerant return policies. There is a good reason why Horizon raised prices, the "its not hurting me" mentality is paid for by everyone.

 

[SrC]

When it comes to a small family startup Hobby businesses and the like, you are investing in their business through loyalty and a decent reputation.
I don't know how slim a profit margin there is for some of these businesses, but a bad batch of parts can really hurt profit substantially if the business had to own and replace these bad parts on the whole.

HH has a business model that allows for a certain amount of legitimate warranty claims. They can eat the loss, because they adjusted the price point of their Kits, Rollers and RTR's to allow for cheaper outsourced production, with less QC. HH is smart because their 2 year warranty is competitive marketting tool for Arrma. And they step up to the plate every time. At least for me.
Poor quality control is part and parcel. HH has calculated this into their business model. They can afford to have a warranty claim dept. Which is a costly expense they made sure is covered.
My spin.

 

[Greengaunja]

When it comes to a small family startup Hobby businesses and the like, you are investing in their business through loyalty and a decent reputation.
I don't know how slim a profit margin there is for some of these businesses, but a bad batch of parts can really hurt profit substantially if the business had to own and replace these bad parts on the whole.

HH has a business model that allows for a certain amount of legitimate warranty claims. They can eat the loss, because they adjusted the price point of their Kits, Rollers and RTR's to allow for cheaper outsourced production, with less QC. HH is smart because their 2 year warranty is competitive marketting tool for Arrma. And they step up to the plate every time. At least for me.
Poor quality control is part and parcel. HH has calculated this into their business model. They can afford to have a warranty claim dept. Which is a costly expense they made sure is covered.
My spin.

Exactly! And this is why it's unreasonable to expect the same warranties from M2C, BQ, PPS, Scorched, HDC, etc. Things outside their control can and will bankrupt them. Their only alternative is to raise prices to unreasonable rates to offset a bad batch or 2. The fact they offer anything at all to help and keep customers is a testament to their dedication to keeping customers happy and loyal.

 

[Angel]

Broke 2 within 10min. This is the upgraded m2c pin and block system. Anyone else snapping pins? Droop is set perfect and the jump was a sub 50ft with perfect chassis slap. Rear left arm both times.

Simply asking a question to see if others are having any issues.

I fully support and stand behind Mitch and m2c racing I love the company and truly believe arrma wouldn't be possible without support from such amazing vendors like M2C.

View attachment 128536View attachment 128537View attachment 128538

Yes, I broke two m2c hinge pins, both times in the front. M2c makes good parts, but their lower arm suspension system aren’t worth it. Both times the pins broke coming off of about a 4ft landing—ridiculous!

Not only the the hinge pins break, also the cvd bent and the shock rod end bent—both times!

This system also kills the versatility of the types of bumpers you can install. I changed to a GPM brand and it’s been awesome.

M2C’s new moto seems to be “anything can break” as you can see they add that comment to all the items on their website.

 

[jkflow]

@Angel, did you tighten them all the way or were they loose?

 

[Angel]

Exactly! And this is why it's unreasonable to expect the same warranties from M2C, BQ, PPS, Scorched, HDC, etc. Things outside their control can and will bankrupt them. Their only alternative is to raise prices to unreasonable rates to offset a bad batch or 2. The fact they offer anything at all to help and keep customers is a testament to their dedication to keeping customers happy and loyal.

I don’t know. This sounds very well written…

However, getting into a business is a personal risk you take as an individual. Passing on the extra cost to the unsuspecting consumers just so you can keep your business going after peddling a bad product is really pitiful. It’s your loss for buying cheap products from sus manufactures so suck it up.

We don’t owe anything to the seller just because “The fact they offer anything at all to help and keep customers is a testament to their dedication to keeping customers happy and loyal”. They are selling “offer”, as you say, products is for them to make a profit for themselves.

The principle of business, which of course has been lost especially in the predatory rc market, is loyalty and respect to the consumers.

If you want to make a living off of us, sell good quality products and stand by it. Don’t make cheap stuff, knowing it will easily break, knowing it has a short life span, just so you can keep cashing in on after market parts which are usually cheap also.

 

[SentFlying]

I don’t know. This sounds very well written…

However, getting into a business is a personal risk you take as an individual. Passing on the extra cost to the unsuspecting consumers just so you can keep your business going after peddling a bad product is really pitiful. It’s your loss for buying cheap products from sus manufactures so suck it up.

We don’t owe anything to the seller just because “The fact they offer anything at all to help and keep customers is a testament to their dedication to keeping customers happy and loyal”. They are selling “offer”, as you say, products is for them to make a profit for themselves.

The principle of business, which of course has been lost especially in the predatory rc market, is loyalty and respect to the consumers.

If you want to make a living off of us, sell good quality products and stand by it. Don’t make cheap stuff, knowing it will easily break, knowing it has a short life span, just so you can keep cashing in on after market parts which are usually cheap also.

Well said sir

 

[Angel]

@Angel, did you tighten them all the way or were they loose?

They were tightened all the way. There’s but so much you can tighten because the rod threads are very short. It also had the washers on all 4 corners under the nuts. These were properly installed both times. And within minutes of use they broke on both occasions.

 

[jkflow]

Yes, that is what I thought. You are only supposed to tighten the nut and secure with thread locker on one end.
The rest of the mounting needs to remain loose when installed.
They have it in their instructions. Tightening will result in snaps, that is just the nature of tool steel.

Yes, the bumpers and diff access is a pain. RPM bumpers work fine, no solution to diff access.
GPM will not last, the hingepin holders will bend out of shape quickly.

 

[Angel]

Yes, that is what I thought. You are only supposed to tighten the nut and secure with thread locker on one end.
The rest of the mounting needs to remain loose when installed.
They have it in their instructions. Tightening will result in snaps, that is just the nature of tool steel.

Yes, the bumpers and diff access is a pain. RPM bumpers work fine, no solution to diff access.
GPM will not last, the hingepin holders will bend out of shape quickly.

How come yours broke?

The reason I had to tightened was because when I didn’t tighten previously, the rod had come loose. Whenever you’re using lock nuts, the thread has to protrude a bit to the other side for proper locking. The only way for this to happen was to bottom out the lock nut.

Whatever their reasonings are for how they make these, Mitch didn’t say anything to me about it when I complained and just sent me replacements. They can put anything in their instructions but it doesn’t make it accurate. They are marketers so their instructions can and will be left for interpretation for their own sake.

“Just read this from their website:
These pins are designed to float. this will allow the arms and pins to rotate in bushing. lock tight the small nut, then screw the lock nut on untill it bottoms out. No need to overtighen the lock nut”

There are only two pieces of instructions in this statement.

1) Specifically “then screw the lock nut on untill it bottoms out”. This means screw in all the way.

2) And “lock tight the small nut”

The last statement “No need to overtighen the lock nut” isn’t an instruction. And they don’t warn against that. They are just saying there is no need to over tighten because the threads won’t allow it. That it’s “designed to float” is very specific on how the system will work.

Now if they made these longer, with the thread at a termination point to avoid over tightening (if that’s even the case), that would make perfect sense. The washers are in there to allow for that flexibility. But this is EXACTLY how they made it—I give them the benefit of the doubt.

But simply, the no need to over tighten isn’t an instruction nor a warning. If over tightening was going to be an issue, they would have slightly tweaked the thread and length so that it wouldn’t happen.

Maybe you uncovered a flaw in their design.

 

[Monster Dork]

Way to overanalyze it. O1 is a very nice steel to machine, and is easy to heat-treat, but therein lies the rub. It is a heat and quench (dunk) treatment, not an electronically-controlled furnace treatment with a tempering cycle to draw back the brittleness. Heat and quench causes uneven spots, and without a temper, spots may end up shattering like glass on impact. If M2C were to use a slower, more controlled heat treat, this wouldn't be so dramatic a discussion. So it's not a defect in materials or design, it's a simple process adjustment to get a little more quality control out of it. This type of problem wouldn't even be visible on a larger part that heats and cools evenly.

 

[Angel]

How come yours broke?

The reason I had to tightened was because when I didn’t tighten previously, the rod had come loose. Whenever you’re using lock nuts, the thread has to protrude a bit to the other side for proper locking. The only way for this to happen was to bottom out the lock nut.

Whatever their reasonings are for how they make these, Mitch didn’t say anything to me about it when I complained and just sent me replacements. They can put anything in their instructions but it doesn’t make it accurate. They are marketers so their instructions can and will be left for interpretation for their own sake.

“Just read this from their website:
These pins are designed to float. this will allow the arms and pins to rotate in bushing. lock tight the small nut, then screw the lock nut on untill it bottoms out. No need to overtighen the lock nut”

There are only two pieces of instructions in this statement.

1) Specifically “then screw the lock nut on untill it bottoms out”. This means screw in all the way.

2) And “lock tight the small nut”

The last statement “No need to overtighen the lock nut” isn’t an instruction. And they don’t warn against that. They are just saying there is no need to over tighten because the threads won’t allow it. That it’s “designed to float” is very specific on how the system will work.

Now if they made these longer, with the thread at a termination point to avoid over tightening (if that’s even the case), that would make perfect sense. The washers are in there to allow for that flexibility. But this is EXACTLY how they made it—I give them the benefit of the doubt.

But simply, the no need to over tighten isn’t an instruction nor a warning. If over tightening was going to be an issue, they would have slightly tweaked the thread and length so that it wouldn’t happen.

Maybe you uncovered a flaw in their design

Way to overanalyze it. O1 is a very nice steel to machine, and is easy to heat-treat, but therein lies the rub. It is a heat and quench (dunk) treatment, not an electronically-controlled furnace treatment with a tempering cycle to draw back the brittleness. Heat and quench causes uneven spots, and without a temper, spots may end up shattering like glass on impact. If M2C were to use a slower, more controlled heat treat, this wouldn't be so dramatic a discussion. So it's not a defect in materials or design, it's a simple process adjustment to get a little more quality control out of it. This type of problem wouldn't even be visible on a larger part that heats and cools evenly.

Way to overanalyze it. O1 is a very nice steel to machine, and is easy to heat-treat, but therein lies the rub. It is a heat and quench (dunk) treatment, not an electronically-controlled furnace treatment with a tempering cycle to draw back the brittleness. Heat and quench causes uneven spots, and without a temper, spots may end up shattering like glass on impact. If M2C were to use a slower, more controlled heat treat, this wouldn't be so dramatic a discussion. So it's not a defect in materials or design, it's a simple process adjustment to get a little more quality control out of it. This type of problem wouldn't even be visible on a larger part that heats and cools evenly.

Yeah I’m sure there are many processes involved that many of us don’t know. I’m not a metallurgist, so it’s up to the seller to do quality control.

They did send me replacements which was nice. But I decided to use a different system which I’ve been beating the crap out of and no problem at all. I know to expect parts to break, but I also know when a part breaks prematurely. In my case both times, they broke within 10 minutes of first use.

That “anything can break” is an overused fact, and excuse for sellers to get their wavers in to compensate for cheap parts.

It’s not my job to defend any of these manufacturers or seller of rc vehicles and parts. I comment here and in a couple of other places just to help out people with information. I’m not promoting any entity.

I actually despise predatory companies big or small and don’t care to make excuses for them. They owe us for making them rich. They owe us good products and good services so we can keep splurging on this addiction.

 

[jkflow]

How come yours broke?

Mine haven't yet.
2 setups, 2 full seasons.

There is no locking nut on one side, that is the red loctite side.
The other one side works with a locking nut (nylon) and the shaft remains loose. At least that is how mine are working.

They have a clear instruction video on the site as well. Couldn't be any more clear than that imho.

 

[SrC]

How come yours broke?

The reason I had to tightened was because when I didn’t tighten previously, the rod had come loose. Whenever you’re using lock nuts, the thread has to protrude a bit to the other side for proper locking. The only way for this to happen was to bottom out the lock nut.

Whatever their reasonings are for how they make these, Mitch didn’t say anything to me about it when I complained and just sent me replacements. They can put anything in their instructions but it doesn’t make it accurate. They are marketers so their instructions can and will be left for interpretation for their own sake.

“Just read this from their website:
These pins are designed to float. this will allow the arms and pins to rotate in bushing. lock tight the small nut, then screw the lock nut on untill it bottoms out. No need to overtighen the lock nut”

There are only two pieces of instructions in this statement.

1) Specifically “then screw the lock nut on untill it bottoms out”. This means screw in all the way.

2) And “lock tight the small nut”

The last statement “No need to overtighen the lock nut” isn’t an instruction. And they don’t warn against that. They are just saying there is no need to over tighten because the threads won’t allow it. That it’s “designed to float” is very specific on how the system will work.

Now if they made these longer, with the thread at a termination point to avoid over tightening (if that’s even the case), that would make perfect sense. The washers are in there to allow for that flexibility. But this is EXACTLY how they made it—I give them the benefit of the doubt.

But simply, the no need to over tighten isn’t an instruction nor a warning. If over tightening was going to be an issue, they would have slightly tweaked the thread and length so that it wouldn’t happen.

Maybe you uncovered a flaw in their design.

Need Blue Thread locker...... Nylock will not hold by itself. This for any Nylock Nut any where on the rig. Shocks standoffs etc. and throughout. They all loosen. Just cant overtighten these M2C hingepins. M2C makes excellent products 99% of the time. Nothing is perfect. IMHO. Mitch knows how severe his parts are used. They are truly tested for a while before releasing them. Unlike many other Upgrade companies who rather use negative customer feed back and complaints, if that, before adressing QC control or a bad design.

 

[Angel]

Mine haven't yet.
2 setups, 2 full seasons.

There is no locking nut on one side, that is the red loctite side.
The other one side works with a locking nut (nylon) and the shaft remains loose. At least that is how mine are working.

They have a clear instruction video on the site as well. Couldn't be any more clear than that imho.

I was responding to the man who said he broke two m2c rear lower suspension pins and was inquiring if he had company out there with the same shattered experience. I’m sure there are many happy customers out there.

As far as instructional videos and tutorials go… McDonald’s burgers look great in commercials but look very different when you’re about to bite into them.

Also, most of these end sellers get their stuff from foreign distributors and don’t even know what goes into the materials and how good it always is and may get a bad batch.

Jkflow—this isn’t meant towards you.

I was sharing my experience with someone who asked a question. If someone here shared that his/her mother died of cancer and was looking for support—I wouldn’t be responding with, well my mother is alive and doing great.

And I’ll bet someone will say something stupid like, well, I wouldn’t be talking about that on this chat.

If we stick to the topic and offer reasonable help to people who ask, and cut out all the pompous crap to show how smart and how much intelligence you’ve been blessed with, we would give ourselves more guidance, and to the distributors, real things to consider because they read these threads also.

Two of the biggest issues out there in the rc world are cost and quality. And all rc distributors and seller aren’t raising their prices and selling cheap stuff because they are doing bad. They are just greedy.

 

[Angel]

Need Blue Thread locker...... Nylock will not hold by itself. This for any Nylock Nut any where on the rig. Shocks standoffs etc. and throughout. They all loosen. Just cant overtighten these M2C hingepins. M2C makes excellent products 99% of the time. Nothing is perfect. IMHO. Mitch knows how severe his parts are used. They are truly tested for a while before releasing them. Unlike many other Upgrade companies who rather use negative customer feed back and complaints, if that, before adressing QC control or a bad design.

I hear you. I work in the construction business and we use lock nuts because that’s what they are made for—to self lock. I use several other thread locking system depending on the applications.

I’m not trying to make excuses for any manufacturers. That’s not my job. I’m an end user and simply shared my experiences with the guys here.

But even if I were to dip all of my 10 rc cars and trucks in thread lock juice, my point is that I used the product as instructed and it broke. “lock tight the small nut, then screw the lock nut on untill it bottoms out”. Are you gonna tell me that Mitch made his own locknut? Maybe the flaw was in the nylon lock. Maybe maybe maybe…. I’m just saying mine broke on a 4 foot landing. Maybe I’m lying? Do I know 99% percent of m2c sales and its success? No and no.

I think that even if I burst my knuckles tightening the crap out of those pins, they shouldn’t have broken with such minimal use if they were of any good quality. Maybe this was a bad batch.

I put a different system in and smashed all over the place and everything is perfect. By the way the vehicle in question is furnished in m2c parts, just the lower hinge pin support system is different.

I’m just putting out the facts out there.

 

[jkflow]

I don't quite get the rant and sorry that I responded, you had the statement right after my quoted text.
Bash on i.e. as in enjoy your rigs.