Castle Creation "Cryo drive" ESC RPM matching.

[AIan]

Send castle the video you made too

 

[JayP.]

Send castle the video you made too

Doing that right now.

 

[JayP.]

I finally convinced castle to send me a new, replacement ESC... I appreciate everyone trying to troubleshoot the issue with me, and give me insight to their own cryodrive ESC behavior. I wasn't sure if they were telling me the truth, lying, or was unsure of the issue. People not experiencing the strange braking after returning to throttle basically made me sure that this is not intended. I don't see how anyone would manufacture an ESC with that being intended, it would be an irritating driving experience.

 

[ARRMA King]

Please let us know with the replacement one if the problem is fixed.

I too am seeing this behavior with an MMX8s sensored to a 1717 1650kv.

All things are smooth and normal except:

If I apply aggressive burst power off the line and sense an unwanted wheelie, I get off the throttle.

Front end comes down and apply less power to continue on and immediate brake lock-up, like an instant crawler reverse scenario. Awful slamming crunch front tire dig!

Then normal forwards operations thereafter!

Fault is repeatable.

I noticed a workout if you patiently “wait” an extra second before immediately getting back on the power, no hiccup. But a user shouldn’t have to do this!

I suspect something with the programming logic like others have theorized.

Current settings that I’ll will check to troubleshoot:

punch control at 60%
Aux mapping to Drag Mode
Brake 100%
Brake ramp - instant/disabled

Even if my TX trigger joggled & overshot the deadzone, the expected brakes should be a touch not full on immediate lock up!!

 

[Arrma Addict]

I just found this thread and I am having the same experience with my brand new 8s EXB with xlx2 800kv and Futaba 4PM. I only ran the truck twice, I thought it was something I was doing. I have RTR electronics on all my other rigs so I'm more than a little over my head to trouble shoot this. Please JayP. keep us posted.

 

[JayP.]

Please let us know with the replacement one if the problem is fixed.

I too am seeing this behavior with an MMX8s sensored to a 1717 1650kv.

All things are smooth and normal except:

If I apply aggressive burst power off the line and sense an unwanted wheelie, I get off the throttle.

Front end comes down and apply less power to continue on and immediate brake lock-up, like an instant crawler reverse scenario. Awful slamming crunch front tire dig!

Then normal forwards operations thereafter!

Fault is repeatable.

I noticed a workout if you patiently “wait” an extra second before immediately getting back on the power, no hiccup. But a user shouldn’t have to do this!

I suspect something with the programming logic like others have theorized.

Current settings that I’ll will check to troubleshoot:

punch control at 60%
Aux mapping to Drag Mode
Brake 100%
Brake ramp - instant/disabled

Even if my TX trigger joggled & overshot the deadzone, the expected brakes should be a touch not full on immediate lock up!!

The fact that two other people are reporting this issue gives me a little less hope that the new unit will be fixed. Others weren't reporting this issue though, so maybe it is a hardware issue. They said I'd be getting a replacement mid October, so I'll keep you updated, if it STILL exhibits this annoying behavior, I'm not sticking with their xlx2, and I won't be going for any of their cryo drive ESCs anytime soon. If they really meant that it's a feature, then that's hilarious, it's more of a nuisance than anything else.

I just found this thread and I am having the same experience with my brand new 8s EXB with xlx2 800kv and Futaba 4PM. I only ran the truck twice, I thought it was something I was doing. I have RTR electronics on all my other rigs so I'm more than a little over my head to trouble shoot this. Please JayP. keep us posted.

The first day I run it, I'll make sure to post about my results immediately!

 

[Arrma Addict]

I'll be going to the LHS on Saturday where I bought the entire setup and see what they can do for me. Stay tuned.....

 

[ARRMA King]

Okay… after annoyingly going thru 10+ setting changes to isolate & troubleshoot this problematic behavior of full on brakes after a quick aggressive spurt of ‘throttle’, then no input leading to truck popping a wheelie-into-brakes is like trying to do a bunny hop or a skateboard ollie smh!

(still cringed at when the ‘snapping drivetrain noise’ occurred, inspected plastic spur as that’s the only non-metal weak link but visually seems okay unless it was really crazy teeth slap?)


I have narrowed it down to “Smart Sense Brushless” settings.

Changing the setting to “Sensored Only” seems to have eliminated the problem in my initial testing ‘wheelie procedure’.

In this setting even the resulting vehicle coasting after initial power burst seems more free’er in this mode, if you will.

Which would make sense if the previous suspects are rotor sync issues and unwisely applying brakes to correct for it.

100% Sensored mode would make logical sense to rectify being in sync all the time.

I theorize this mismatch & braking effect is probably exacerbated in the transition from the hybrid mode sensored to sensorless logic transitions.

So for now it appears either run 100% Sensored mode setting only and eat the cost/benefit of this shortcoming or if smart sense, commit to getting the vehicle rolling first for ‘normal expected driving operation’ and being extra patient with the throttle transitions, but I still feel this isn’t guaranteed.

Have not yet tried unplugged cable for pure sensorless yet.

 

[JayP.]

Okay… after annoyingly going thru 10+ setting changes to isolate & troubleshoot this problematic behavior of full on brakes after a quick aggressive spurt of ‘throttle’, then no input leading to truck popping a wheelie-into-brakes is like trying to do a bunny hop or a skateboard ollie smh!

(still cringed at when the ‘snapping drivetrain noise’ occurred, inspected plastic spur as that’s the only non-metal weak link but visually seems okay unless it was really crazy teeth slap?)


I have narrowed it down to “Smart Sense Brushless” settings.

Changing the setting to “Sensored Only” seems to have eliminated the problem in my initial testing ‘wheelie procedure’.

In this setting even the resulting vehicle coasting after initial power burst seems more free’er in this mode, if you will.

Which would make sense if the previous suspects are rotor sync issues and unwisely applying brakes to correct for it.

100% Sensored mode would make logical sense to rectify being in sync all the time.

I theorize this mismatch & braking effect is probably exacerbated in the transition from the hybrid mode sensored to sensorless logic transitions.

So for now it appears either run 100% Sensored mode setting only and eat the cost/benefit of this shortcoming or if smart sense, commit to getting the vehicle rolling first for ‘normal expected driving operation’ and being extra patient with the throttle transitions, but I still feel this isn’t guaranteed.

Have not yet tried unplugged cable for pure sensorless yet.

That just isn't right, we shouldn't have to run in sensored only mode to remove this issue, it's highly inefficient for basher setups... I run my outcast 6s in smart sense brushless, and it runs great (not a cryo drive ESC though), so whatever they've implemented with these cryo drive ESCs is either just not working properly on some units, or it's a wide spread ISSUE. They still refuse to say it is an issue, even though NO ONE would buy an ESC if they openly said "yeah, this is standard behavior..." At least in a basher setup when throttle varies all the time. Maybe people would overlook it just for the performance, which is understandable, but for me it's unacceptable. It makes the vehicle annoying to drive! And I've tested sensorless, with the cable unplugged, it was still behaving exactly the same.

 

[SrC]

I'll be going to the LHS on Saturday where I bought the entire setup and see what they can do for me. Stay tuned.....

All they do is tell you to deal with CC. Dam that gear is $$$$ too.

 

[ARRMA King]

Okay… here is some promise after tinkering around with settings & analyzing some more, but your mileage may vary.

So my throttle data logs showed some massive abnormal reverse asymptote spiking after the burst punch, way beyond the typical 1 ms reverse endpoint! This is not even possible by controller signal, completely the ESC’s doing!

I have no clue why this is!!

I said screw it, reset the damn thing back to factory defaults and go from there. And opened up the throttle dead band one step just to rule out that extra factor.

Brake gremlins appears to be gone now?!! And after step wise incrementally turning back on all my previous settings I wanted, punch, brake, drag, aux map, low 5 deg time, and left it at Smart hybrid mode and reviewing logs of my throttle imputs.

No more crazy reverse spikes. Huh… I don’t know what gives but if it’s finally cleared up now, I don’t wanna mess with it anymore… until it happens again.

Still cautiously skeptical until more time passes
Oh and one more other thing I’m not sure if this is as big of a problem but stumbled upon this gremlin now too

Upon doing my burst punch test, and then of course I gotta apply some brakes, and then repeatedly doing this over and over for stress testing may cause the esc to go limp?

I don’t know if it got lost doing what it’s supposed to be doing but I had to clear it up with an off/on again procedure.

I know some, esp early brushless systems geared wrong would “fail start” and that’s what I felt like I triggered doing this repeated short burst stress test over and over and over.

Not sure if others have experience this esc going into limbo too?

 

[JayP.]

Okay… here is some promise after tinkering around with settings & analyzing some more, but your mileage may vary.

So my throttle data logs showed some massive abnormal reverse asymptote spiking after the burst punch, way beyond the typical 1 ms reverse endpoint! This is not even possible by controller signal, completely the ESC’s doing!

I have no clue why this is!!

I said screw it, reset the damn thing back to factory defaults and go from there. And opened up the throttle dead band one step just to rule out that extra factor.

Brake gremlins appears to be gone now?!! And after step wise incrementally turning back on all my previous settings I wanted, punch, brake, drag, aux map, low 5 deg time, and left it at Smart hybrid mode and reviewing logs of my throttle imputs.

No more crazy reverse spikes. Huh… I don’t know what gives but if it’s finally cleared up now, I don’t wanna mess with it anymore… until it happens again.

Still cautiously skeptical until more time passes
Oh and one more other thing I’m not sure if this is as big of a problem but stumbled upon this gremlin now too

Upon doing my burst punch test, and then of course I gotta apply some brakes, and then repeatedly doing this over and over for stress testing may cause the esc to go limp?

I don’t know if it got lost doing what it’s supposed to be doing but I had to clear it up with an off/on again procedure.

I know some, esp early brushless systems geared wrong would “fail start” and that’s what I felt like I triggered doing this repeated short burst stress test over and over and over.

Not sure if others have experience this esc going into limbo too?

I'll definitely have to try this out with the new unit if this issue still persists... I wasn't sure what I was looking at with the datalogs, so I probably didn't notice it (wish I saved them so I could share, but obviously you're having the exact same issue, so I think I'm good there). I thought it looked normal relative to the data of my mamba monster x 6s ESC. So I didn't think anything of it. I left the data on there for castle to look at, because I innocently thought they'd be able to spot the issue instantly... The 4 runs I did, I was able to recreate the issue multiple times, meaning it would've been all over the data log, yet they said everything looked good. Again I'll keep you updated if this ESC does it or not, and if it does, I'll see if the issue is fixed. I'll try to see if the ESC will go into limp mode as well, I'm curious if that's an issue as well, I do lot of full throttle bursts with hard braking, so it's a good thing to test.

 

[JayP.]

Okay… here is some promise after tinkering around with settings & analyzing some more, but your mileage may vary.

So my throttle data logs showed some massive abnormal reverse asymptote spiking after the burst punch, way beyond the typical 1 ms reverse endpoint! This is not even possible by controller signal, completely the ESC’s doing!

I have no clue why this is!!

I said screw it, reset the damn thing back to factory defaults and go from there. And opened up the throttle dead band one step just to rule out that extra factor.

Brake gremlins appears to be gone now?!! And after step wise incrementally turning back on all my previous settings I wanted, punch, brake, drag, aux map, low 5 deg time, and left it at Smart hybrid mode and reviewing logs of my throttle imputs.

No more crazy reverse spikes. Huh… I don’t know what gives but if it’s finally cleared up now, I don’t wanna mess with it anymore… until it happens again.

Still cautiously skeptical until more time passes
Oh and one more other thing I’m not sure if this is as big of a problem but stumbled upon this gremlin now too

Upon doing my burst punch test, and then of course I gotta apply some brakes, and then repeatedly doing this over and over for stress testing may cause the esc to go limp?

I don’t know if it got lost doing what it’s supposed to be doing but I had to clear it up with an off/on again procedure.

I know some, esp early brushless systems geared wrong would “fail start” and that’s what I felt like I triggered doing this repeated short burst stress test over and over and over.

Not sure if others have experience this esc going into limbo too?

Also, did you increase or decrease the throttle deadband? (Add more latency or less) I'm assuming increased? Not that it matters too much, I just want to know what to test right away to see if it fixes the issue.

 

[ARRMA King]

I increased the deadband from default 0.1000 to average-large 0.1125 ms I believe?

I’ve used large in the past with other esc’s so was going to go there next if I still saw a hint of uncommanded brake/reverse.

I also pulled and sagged an expo curve on both throttle and brake just to add another layer of buffer.

Since then have not witnessed that erroneous ‘brake checking’ and the throttle inputs in the data logs appear to be in accord now with the observed operations.

I still suspect something in the software needs fixing if others have somehow invoked this mysterious bug.

I now also do recall I’ve also witnessed this before on my old castle 6s Mamba Max Pro on sensorless when I resumed throttle sometimes on a monster truck with short gearing and I would see that random ‘stutter/nose dive” before it resumes power forwards on a level road.

 

[JayP.]

I increased the deadband from default 0.1000 to average-large 0.1125 ms I believe?

I’ve used large in the past with other esc’s so was going to go there next if I still saw a hint of uncommanded brake/reverse.

I also pulled and sagged an expo curve on both throttle and brake just to add another layer of buffer.

Since then have not witnessed that erroneous ‘brake checking’ and the throttle inputs in the data logs appear to be in accord now with the observed operations.

I still suspect something in the software needs fixing if others have somehow invoked this mysterious bug.

I now also do recall I’ve also witnessed this before on my old castle 6s Mamba Max Pro on sensorless when I resumed throttle sometimes on a monster truck with short gearing and I would see that random ‘stutter/nose dive” before it resumes power forwards on a level road.

Do you think you could test it without the expo changed? If you just don't wanna mess with it so it doesn't start doing it again, that's totally understandable. I just wanna know for sure if it's the expo or the deadband. I can test for myself when I get the new unit.

 

[Arrma Addict]

I'll be going to the LHS on Saturday where I bought the entire setup and see what they can do for me. Stay tuned.....

After an hour at the LHS they had no solution other than to contact castle

 

[Arrma Addict]

After speaking with the manager this morning at the LHS where I was at on Saturday with no luck, I made another trip to the hobby shop (1 hour away) were I purchased the Outcast EXB, Castle set-up and Futaba for him to diagnose. I drove the truck in the parking lot for him to see. He made sure the latest software was installed went over all the settings with me and calibrated the throttle. Everything is working as it should now. Thank you Jeremy at Baker Hobby Town in Waite Park MN!!!

 

[JayP.]

After speaking with the manager this morning at the LHS where I was at on Saturday with no luck, I made another trip to the hobby shop (1 hour away) were I purchased the Outcast EXB, Castle set-up and Futaba for him to diagnose. I drove the truck in the parking lot for him to see. He made sure the latest software was installed went over all the settings with me and calibrated the throttle. Everything is working as it should now. Thank you Jeremy at Baker Hobby Town in Waite Park MN!!!

What did he change to fix the issue?

 

[Arrma Addict]

Nothing was changed. He did a factory reset, set punch, brake, etc. and calibraded throttle. I drove it in the parking lot and so did he. He was imperssed how smooth and adgile it was cosidering the size and power. The store wasn't busy so he had time to show me how to do all of this and more so I can do it myself, Castle link adapter ordered.

 

[JayP.]

Nothing was changed. He did a factory reset, set punch, brake, etc. and calibraded throttle. I drove it in the parking lot and so did he. He was imperssed how smooth and adgile it was cosidering the size and power. The store wasn't busy so he had time to show me how to do all of this and more so I can do it myself, Castle link adapter ordered.

I got another XLX2, same issues, I'm getting better videos of it this time and comparing it to a kraton 8s with a max 5 and 1100kv 5687 motor, it makes it quite obvious that something is wrong. I'll try and upload it tomorrow. I know the brands are different, but the max 5 behaves how I'd expect an RC to behave.