Castle MMX w/1515 2200Kv Temps - Typhon 6S

[bicketybam]

I decided to run a test on the Castle MMX paired with the 1515 sensored 2200kv motor running a 16T pinion. I used 2 Turnigy Graphene 3S 4000 mAh 45C batteries. This combo is in my V3 Typhon which has an M2C chassis and shock towers along with Voltage Hobbies steer plate, chassis braces, 3 suspension mounts and the servo mount. For tires I ran Proline Badland buggy tires. I'm not good at estimating weight but I would say the truck is a little heavier than stock. If someone wants to figure it out or take an educated guess that would be great

I ran in sensored mode and data logged everything. I had LVC set to 3.5v per cell and the motor temperature cutoff set at 180 degrees. Every time you power cycle the MMX it creates a new data log session. The first session lasted 9 minutes and 54 seconds according to the data log. Based on my video footage, I show an elapsed time of 10 minutes and 12 seconds. I am not sure why there is an second disparity. In any event the max ESC temperature was 211.7 degrees and the max motor temperature was 162.8 degree. The session ended when I landed on a front wheel and pulled the pillow ball out of the suspension arm. I walked it up to my front porch and powered it down, this ending session 1. Here is the graph:

It took me roughly 8 minutes to repair the pillow ball and then I began session 2. Unfortunately the log filled up before I could finish the battery. I was able to log 4 minutes and 41 seconds before the log filled. While I was repairing the truck, the ESC had cooled to 126.5 degrees and the motor had cooled to 99.2 degrees. In the time I was able to log,the ESC hit a max of 206.1 degrees and the motor hit a max of 155.9 degrees. Here is the graph.

Once the log was full I continued to run for another 1 minutes and 22 seconds before I hit thermal cutoff on the motor (set to 180 degrees). I felt the motor and it was very hot to the touch. I let the truck sit for 10 minutes (I timed it) and then ran it for 15 seconds and it hit LVC When I looked at the last logged voltage the battery cells were at an average of 3.65v. I have LVC set to 3.5v per cell.

So there you have it. The reason I did this was to shed some light on this combo as a possible bashing option for the Arrma vehicles. I originally had it in the V3 Kraton and the motor would overheat constantly. I can't remember what pinion I was running but it was definitely smaller than 16t. Personally I would not recommend this combo for any Arrma 6S dirt bashing vehicle other than the Typhon (I have no idea how it would run in a speed rig). Even running fans in the larger trucks would be pushing it. I am going to install the same motor fan setup on that I have on my Kraton EXB and Talion. That should keep the motor temps in check. I am definitely at the top of the bashing gearing spectrum. I am theoretically geared to 70 mph.

My only real concern is the ESC temps. We had a poster a while back that claimed that the Castle ESC temp turn on for the fan is way to high and by that point irreparable damage has already been done. He claims to be super experienced but I'd really like to hear from @robert@castle concerning this. What exactly is the ESC temp that initiates the fan?

 

[Rcproponent]

Starting to get a little concerned with the newest castle products. The numerous issues with the mmx8s and now also the mmx.

here soon there are going to be so many people burning up their ESC’s and then this is going to lead to bad reputation for castle.

the 8s you literally have to add washers to so it doesn’t self destruct.

??‍

 

[bicketybam]

Starting to get a little concerned with the newest castle products. The numerous issues with the mmx8s and now also the mmx.

here soon there are going to be so many people burning up their ESC’s and then this is going to lead to bad reputation for castle.

the 8s you literally have to add washers to so it doesn’t self destruct.

??‍

The MMX I have is over 2 years old. This is nothing new.

 

[suchtragedy]

When I was trying to get my head wrapped around the castle motor sizing nomenclature vs. the mm sizing equivalents I kept finding random old discussion threads of the 1515 motor from various RC forums and what I basically recall was it was a decent motor for buggies up to 1/8 scale but not up to the task running in heavier 1/8 MTs.

 

[LibertyMKiii]

That MMX6s ESC seems to run hot.
I have no idea what the issue is with this model, when situations like this are not over geared or overly stressful for it.

 

[FlipSide]

Wow! I think I need a sensored motor in my life, just to geek out like that.

 

[olds97_lss]

I run the mmx/2200kv sensored in my savage flux. It does run on the warm side. I have trencher 3.8's on it and a transmission with a center diff as well, otherwise I wouldn't be able to drive it with my driving abilities... lol! It's a handful as it is!

I did have to gear it down from stock gearing quite a bit. Not sure why, but many people said gearing it down down to run 6S in it caused heat issues, but it never made sense to me why they thought that... just said "trust us and try it". I did and it overheated in 5 minutes... Thanks for playing... Then I geared down a lot. From 20/44 to 16/48, and I'd like to go lower, but need a larger spur to do it. I can run it pretty hard at the bmx track for a full set of packs, but it's still on the warm side and quick enough to be a challenge to drive (higher cg than my other 2 6S trucks).

I pulled the stock esc fan and replaced it with one of the high velocity hobby star 30mm alloy fans that's wired to the receiver, so always on. I also have one of those pointing at the motor. Both of those helped my temps quite a bit.

Seems I haven't run it in a year... Too busy with my other trucks I guess.

Now I kind of wonder what it weighs compared to my outcast... neither of them are light by any means...

No clue why it says the motor temp spiked for the last 5 seconds. If I drag my mouse through the graph, the highest it got throughout the entire run was 151F. Both it and the esc just climbed from beginning to almost the end, kind of plateaued around the 13 minute mark around 184F for the esc and 151F for the motor. The grass wasn't overly short at the bmx track that day either, so that likely didn't help.

 

[robert@castle]

My only real concern is the ESC temps. We had a poster a while back that claimed that the Castle ESC temp turn on for the fan is way to high and by that point irreparable damage has already been done. He claims to be super experienced but I'd really like to hear from @robert@castle concerning this. What exactly is the ESC temp that initiates the fan?

The ESC fan should turn on at 60-65C(140-149F). I personally wish we had this as a setting in the ESC to allow the user to pick the value. The ESC with thermal shutdown at ~100C(212F).

Heat really isn't much of a concern to any of the components of a Castle ESC. We use automotive grade processors because they are qualified to run hotter(~10C) than the normal processors, but we have thermal protection shut everything down long(~35-40C) before it reaches any where near that temperature. The MOSFETs in the Monster X are rated to run at up to 150C, we have run some well above that on the bench to see what happens. I think the lowest rated component we use is rated for 120c. Some products have the thermal limit set to 95C because we know what everything is rated to and we watch the lowest rated component and set the thermal protections with all components in mind.

One concern that people often have about heat in electronics is the durability of solder joints holding the components on the circuit board. We had an industrial customer express concern about that a few years ago. To validate our products, we build a thermal cycle tester. We found a non conductive silicone fluid that could be heated and cooled without issue. We had 2 tanks of it, one heated to ~95c, the other chilled to ~5c. We built a robot that would dunk a pair of Sidewinder 3's into a tank and watch a serial connection to the ESC for the ESC to reach the tank temperature before running a motor for 10 seconds. It would then pull the ESCs out of the tank and then move them into the other tank and repeating the test indefinitely. We ran the machine for about 2 months and it did 12500 complete hot->cold cycles. It only took a little over a minute to heat up or cool down the ESCs, putting them under pretty extreme thermal shock.
Video of it running:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1018102834893141

The only issue we had with either ESC was the silicone fluid started to absorb into the silicone insulation on the wires and they started to swell and crack off. This wouldn't happen under normal conditions, it was only a side effect of our test setup. I also doubt that anyone with ever run their ESC to 95c 12500 times, that would take 3 runs per day every day for almost 12 years.

When we were testing the Monster X, we wanted to see how it would handle constant thermal shutdowns. We put it in a 1/5th scale Losi 5ive-T to put it under as much stress as we could make. We ran it as hard as we could until it shutdown(~1:20). After a shutdown if you don't turn it off, the ESC will remain in thermal shutdown until it cools below 70c. At 70c it will re-arm and allow you to start driving again. We then drove it until it shutdown again(~25 seconds). We then repeated this process of drive it till it thermals and then let it cool and drive it till it thermals for an entire 6s 6000mah battery pack. We did this entire test 3 more times with time to cool down and recharge the battery between each run. The thermal protections did their job and we had no issues with the test unit.

Motor thermals are a much bigger issue than ESC thermals. You can absolutely ruin a motor by running it too hot. I forget the exact number we tell people not to go over, but that number is very conservative because the temp you can measure on the outside of a motor can is much different than what is happening inside the can. When motors get too hot, the magnets degrade and lose their magnetic strength. Many motors that come standard in RTR models are built with magnets that are rated to ~120-140C. We elect to build our motors with magnets rated to 180C.

 

[olds97_lss]

It really is nice having a guy like you hanging out on the forums, @robert@castle. Answering the goofy things we come up with and wonder about.

I can confirm that the blx2050 loses a lot of pizazz in the magnets somewhere around 250F on the outside. I cooked mine a few months ago in my outcast when my fan died... no clue what the inside temp was, but I saw 254F on the can. I can now easily spin the output shaft with my thumb/finger for many revolutions. It almost free spins.

 

[bicketybam]

The ESC fan should turn on at 60-65C(140-149F). I personally wish we had this as a setting in the ESC to allow the user to pick the value. The ESC with thermal shutdown at ~100C(212F).

Heat really isn't much of a concern to any of the components of a Castle ESC. We use automotive grade processors because they are qualified to run hotter(~10C) than the normal processors, but we have thermal protection shut everything down long(~35-40C) before it reaches any where near that temperature. The MOSFETs in the Monster X are rated to run at up to 150C, we have run some well above that on the bench to see what happens. I think the lowest rated component we use is rated for 120c. Some products have the thermal limit set to 95C because we know what everything is rated to and we watch the lowest rated component and set the thermal protections with all components in mind.

One concern that people often have about heat in electronics is the durability of solder joints holding the components on the circuit board. We had an industrial customer express concern about that a few years ago. To validate our products, we build a thermal cycle tester. We found a non conductive silicone fluid that could be heated and cooled without issue. We had 2 tanks of it, one heated to ~95c, the other chilled to ~5c. We built a robot that would dunk a pair of Sidewinder 3's into a tank and watch a serial connection to the ESC for the ESC to reach the tank temperature before running a motor for 10 seconds. It would then pull the ESCs out of the tank and then move them into the other tank and repeating the test indefinitely. We ran the machine for about 2 months and it did 12500 complete hot->cold cycles. It only took a little over a minute to heat up or cool down the ESCs, putting them under pretty extreme thermal shock.
Video of it running:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1018102834893141

The only issue we had with either ESC was the silicone fluid started to absorb into the silicone insulation on the wires and they started to swell and crack off. This wouldn't happen under normal conditions, it was only a side effect of our test setup. I also doubt that anyone with ever run their ESC to 95c 12500 times, that would take 3 runs per day every day for almost 12 years.

When we were testing the Monster X, we wanted to see how it would handle constant thermal shutdowns. We put it in a 1/5th scale Losi 5ive-T to put it under as much stress as we could make. We ran it as hard as we could until it shutdown(~1:20). After a shutdown if you don't turn it off, the ESC will remain in thermal shutdown until it cools below 70c. At 70c it will re-arm and allow you to start driving again. We then drove it until it shutdown again(~25 seconds). We then repeated this process of drive it till it thermals and then let it cool and drive it till it thermals for an entire 6s 6000mah battery pack. We did this entire test 3 more times with time to cool down and recharge the battery between each run. The thermal protections did their job and we had no issues with the test unit.

Motor thermals are a much bigger issue than ESC thermals. You can absolutely ruin a motor by running it too hot. I forget the exact number we tell people not to go over, but that number is very conservative because the temp you can measure on the outside of a motor can is much different than what is happening inside the can. When motors get too hot, the magnets degrade and lose their magnetic strength. Many motors that come standard in RTR models are built with magnets that are rated to ~120-140C. We elect to build our motors with magnets rated to 180C.

Thank you for taking the time to type that all out. I learned a lot. I guess the guy who said the esc would be cooked by the time the fan came on was talking just his ass ? Thanks again for clearing this up!

 

[Boodaggy]

The ESC fan should turn on at 60-65C(140-149F). I personally wish we had this as a setting in the ESC to allow the user to pick the value. The ESC with thermal shutdown at ~100C(212F).

Heat really isn't much of a concern to any of the components of a Castle ESC. We use automotive grade processors because they are qualified to run hotter(~10C) than the normal processors, but we have thermal protection shut everything down long(~35-40C) before it reaches any where near that temperature. The MOSFETs in the Monster X are rated to run at up to 150C, we have run some well above that on the bench to see what happens. I think the lowest rated component we use is rated for 120c. Some products have the thermal limit set to 95C because we know what everything is rated to and we watch the lowest rated component and set the thermal protections with all components in mind.

One concern that people often have about heat in electronics is the durability of solder joints holding the components on the circuit board. We had an industrial customer express concern about that a few years ago. To validate our products, we build a thermal cycle tester. We found a non conductive silicone fluid that could be heated and cooled without issue. We had 2 tanks of it, one heated to ~95c, the other chilled to ~5c. We built a robot that would dunk a pair of Sidewinder 3's into a tank and watch a serial connection to the ESC for the ESC to reach the tank temperature before running a motor for 10 seconds. It would then pull the ESCs out of the tank and then move them into the other tank and repeating the test indefinitely. We ran the machine for about 2 months and it did 12500 complete hot->cold cycles. It only took a little over a minute to heat up or cool down the ESCs, putting them under pretty extreme thermal shock.
Video of it running:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1018102834893141

The only issue we had with either ESC was the silicone fluid started to absorb into the silicone insulation on the wires and they started to swell and crack off. This wouldn't happen under normal conditions, it was only a side effect of our test setup. I also doubt that anyone with ever run their ESC to 95c 12500 times, that would take 3 runs per day every day for almost 12 years.

When we were testing the Monster X, we wanted to see how it would handle constant thermal shutdowns. We put it in a 1/5th scale Losi 5ive-T to put it under as much stress as we could make. We ran it as hard as we could until it shutdown(~1:20). After a shutdown if you don't turn it off, the ESC will remain in thermal shutdown until it cools below 70c. At 70c it will re-arm and allow you to start driving again. We then drove it until it shutdown again(~25 seconds). We then repeated this process of drive it till it thermals and then let it cool and drive it till it thermals for an entire 6s 6000mah battery pack. We did this entire test 3 more times with time to cool down and recharge the battery between each run. The thermal protections did their job and we had no issues with the test unit.

Motor thermals are a much bigger issue than ESC thermals. You can absolutely ruin a motor by running it too hot. I forget the exact number we tell people not to go over, but that number is very conservative because the temp you can measure on the outside of a motor can is much different than what is happening inside the can. When motors get too hot, the magnets degrade and lose their magnetic strength. Many motors that come standard in RTR models are built with magnets that are rated to ~120-140C. We elect to build our motors with magnets rated to 180C.

What location on the motor is best to check temperatures on a castle 2028 motor? I have always checked the end bell where the motor wires enter the motor. My end bell will read 150°f but the middle of the can will read 110°f. My temps always seem high compared to what others claim to get online with comparable gearing on all my motor esc combos.

 

[robert@castle]

What location on the motor is best to check temperatures on a castle 2028 motor? I have always checked the end bell where the motor wires enter the motor. My end bell will read 150°f but the middle of the can will read 110°f. My temps always seem high compared to what others claim to get online with comparable gearing on all my motor esc combos.

It sounds like you have already done this, but we recommend measuring several locations and always taking the highest value. Most accurate is going to be the sensor on the sensor board because it is inside the motor, but rear endbell is normally the warmest external temp.

 

[Boodaggy]

It sounds like you have already done this, but we recommend measuring several locations and always taking the highest value. Most accurate is going to be the sensor on the sensor board because it is inside the motor, but rear endbell is normally the warmest external temp.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.