Limitless Finding the 200 mph motor for the Limitless/Infraction GT

[limitless202+]

Hi guys,

I'm still fairly new to the speed running game and from all the information here I'm still a bit unclear on a few things regarding TP motors and was hoping someone might enlighten me on a few questions.

I keep seeing mentions that the XLX2 doesn't do well with 6P motors, yet I see a lot of people running 56xx & 58xx motors all the same. I don't see any differentiation being made between delta and wye wind motors around this topic. It's my understanding that Castle ESC's do better with wye wind motors, which makes sense as all Castle motors are wye wind. So is it generally a bad idea to run delta wind motors with an XLX2? Would I run an increased risk of damaging motor, ESC or both? Or is it just a matter of "would technically work but performance would be crap"?

When shopping around for TP motors, all of the 56 and 58xx motors I find are 6P motors. Virtually all of the speed runners I see are using XLX2 ESCs, so what's the bit that's kind of being left unsaid here? What am I missing here? I guess what I'm asking is, which 56xx and 58xx motors will be a good fit for an XLX2?

One other question...I found sensored TP motors on Aliexpress, don't really see anyone using them or even mentioning their existence (also odd that sensored motors are nowhere to be found nor mentioned on any of TP motors' websites be it USA, Europe, Germany or any of the various retailers that sell TP). Are these not genuine TP motors or are the sensors retrofitted by some outfit in China? They state explicitly that they're designed to work with XLX2 ESCs which raised the question of whether this might make their 6P motors more palatable to Castle ESCs?

Thanks in advance to anyone who might shed some light and help clear up my confabulationatory ignorance on the topic.

If you are unsure run the 2028. It has more power then you wil ever need.

 

[LibertyMKiii]

Hi guys,

I'm still fairly new to the speed running game and from all the information here I'm still a bit unclear on a few things regarding TP motors and was hoping someone might enlighten me on a few questions.

I keep seeing mentions that the XLX2 doesn't do well with 6P motors, yet I see a lot of people running 56xx & 58xx motors all the same. I don't see any differentiation being made between delta and wye wind motors around this topic. It's my understanding that Castle ESC's do better with wye wind motors, which makes sense as all Castle motors are wye wind. So is it generally a bad idea to run delta wind motors with an XLX2? Would I run an increased risk of damaging motor, ESC or both? Or is it just a matter of "would technically work but performance would be crap"?

When shopping around for TP motors, all of the 56 and 58xx motors I find are 6P motors. Virtually all of the speed runners I see are using XLX2 ESCs, so what's the bit that's kind of being left unsaid here? What am I missing here? I guess what I'm asking is, which 56xx and 58xx motors will be a good fit for an XLX2?

One other question...I found sensored TP motors on Aliexpress, don't really see anyone using them or even mentioning their existence (also odd that sensored motors are nowhere to be found nor mentioned on any of TP motors' websites be it USA, Europe, Germany or any of the various retailers that sell TP). Are these not genuine TP motors or are the sensors retrofitted by some outfit in China? They state explicitly that they're designed to work with XLX2 ESCs which raised the question of whether this might make their 6P motors more palatable to Castle ESCs?

Thanks in advance to anyone who might shed some light and help clear up my confabulationatory ignorance on the topic.

Very solid observation and sorry that I didnt make it clear earlier.
You are correct that TP's 1/5 scale motors are 6-pole and don't exactly play well with the XLX2

They are known to have some RPM sync issues at higher rpms and heavy loads. (you wouldnt notice it on a basher)
To avoid this in general if you stick with a KV of 1460 or lower it seems to be ok. So the speed runners you see are mostly running around 1300kv for it to work correctly.

Regarding Wye vs Delta its regarded as bad info that one works better than the other as there has not been any concrete evidence of such.

 

[rotauq]

Hi guys,

One other question...I found sensored TP motors on Aliexpress, don't really see anyone using them or even mentioning their existence (also odd that sensored motors are nowhere to be found nor mentioned on any of TP motors' websites be it USA, Europe, Germany or any of the various retailers that sell TP). Are these not genuine TP motors or are the sensors retrofitted by some outfit in China?

As a German you should buy your TP's at tppower.de and you will see they make offer most motors as a sensored version as well.(see "reservierung" tab)

I happen to have a sensored 4060 and it runs like crap with the sensored cable installed. Could be a fluke?!
The XLX2 also only supports smart sense brushless mode where it will only support sensored mode on low rpm and will switch to sensorless once it rolls.

 

[Diem Turner]

If you are unsure run the 2028. It has more power then you wil ever need.

"What know you of my power needs?" -- Yoda, probably

Sorry, this kind of advice isn't particularly helpful as it doesn't answer any of the numerous, fairly specific, questions I asked. It's a bit like telling someone who is learning to fly a plane and is asking various questions pertaining to optimal angle of attack during landing approach in a Piper Cub vs Cessna 182, "Just use the auto pilot. It has more functionality than you will ever need." (I AM aware that Piper's and Cessna aren't typically equipped with lavish luxuries like auto pilot but I think it serves my point in this analogy all the same). Thanks though.

 

[KiTris ExtremeRC]

"What know you of my power needs?" -- Yoda, probably

Sorry, this kind of advice isn't particularly helpful as it doesn't answer any of the numerous, fairly specific, questions I asked. It's a bit like telling someone who is learning to fly a plane and is asking various questions pertaining to optimal angle of attack during landing approach in a Piper Cub vs Cessna 182, "Just use the auto pilot. It has more functionality than you will ever need." (I AM aware that Piper's and Cessna aren't typically equipped with lavish luxuries like auto pilot but I think it serves my point in this analogy all the same). Thanks though.

Generally speaking the TP 56/58 series are more powerful than the Castle 2028 hence a lot of people are running them for big speeds. The 2028 is plug and play, especially with the sensored side of things. You can get TP motors sensored but it's mostly their 40 series I think, but I am sure you can get one custom made. But as mentioned above they don't seem to work well...
I personally found that wye motors work better than delta, but that's just my personal observation so take it with a grain of salt. The latest Castle update improved things quite a bit, but I still think it could be improved.
As mentioned above, the big TP cans are 6 pole so I wouldn't recommend a super high Kv (<1500Kv). The XLX2 has to switch really fast at high RMPs with 6 poles and you can't change the PWM in the settings. While the TP & XLX2 is probably not the most efficient running combo compared to a Castle only system, it's still the one to get in terms of raw power.

 

[Diem Turner]

Very solid observation and sorry that I didnt make it clear earlier.
You are correct that TP's 1/5 scale motors are 6-pole and don't exactly play well with the XLX2

They are known to have some RPM sync issues at higher rpms and heavy loads. (you wouldnt notice it on a basher)
To avoid this in general if you stick with a KV of 1460 or lower it seems to be ok. So the speed runners you see are mostly running around 1300kv for it to work correctly.

Regarding Wye vs Delta its regarded as bad info that one works better than the other as there has not been any concrete evidence of such.

Awesome, thank you. One follow up question. Does that apply to both firmware versions 2.11 AND 2.12? In another thread someone wrote that 6P motors worked better with the 2.11 firmware but there doesn't appear to be a way to flash the ESC back to 2.11 once it has been updated to 2.12. Any truth to this to your knowledge or does this also fall into the realm of unsubstantiated rumor?

Generally speaking the TP 56/58 series are more powerful than the Castle 2028 hence a lot of people are running them for big speeds. The 2028 is plug and play, especially with the sensored side of things. You can get TP motors sensored but it's mostly their 40 series I think, but I am sure you can get one custom made. But as mentioned above they don't seem to work well...
I personally found that wye motors work better than delta, but that's just my personal observation so take it with a grain of salt. The latest Castle update improved things quite a bit, but I still think it could be improved.
As mentioned above, the big TP cans are 6 pole so I wouldn't recommend a super high Kv (<1500Kv). The XLX2 has to switch really fast at high RMPs with 6 poles and you can't change the PWM in the settings. While the TP & XLX2 is probably not the most efficient running combo compared to a Castle only system, it's still the one to get in terms of raw power.

Top notch man, I really appreciate it. So keeping it under 1500KV is where its at when it comes to the large can TP motors. Muchas gracias Cap'n KiTris

As a German you should buy your TP's at tppower.de and you will see they make offer most motors as a sensored version as well.(see "reservierung" tab)

I happen to have a sensored 4060 and it runs like crap with the sensored cable installed. Could be a fluke?!
The XLX2 also only supports smart sense brushless mode where it will only support sensored mode on low rpm and will switch to sensorless once it rolls.

Yeah thanks man. tppower.de is where I've been looking, though Islandhobbynut has a nice selection of TP motors as well that I've been perusing. I'm fine with smart sense mode as it does a fine job minimizing or eliminating cogging. Fluke or not, I think I'll steer clear of the sensored TPs. They seem to do alright for everyone else. As they say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander ;-) Cheers mate.

 

[KiTris ExtremeRC]

Awesome, thank you. One follow up question. Does that apply to both firmware versions 2.11 AND 2.12? In another thread someone wrote that 6P motors worked better with the 2.11 firmware but there doesn't appear to be a way to flash the ESC back to 2.11 once it has been updated to 2.12. Any truth to this to your knowledge or does this also fall into the realm of unsubstantiated rumor?

Top notch man, I really appreciate it. So keeping it under 1500KV is where its at when it comes to the large can TP motors. Muchas gracias Cap'n KiTris

Yeah thanks man. tppower.de is where I've been looking, though Islandhobbynut has a nice selection of TP motors as well that I've been perusing. I'm fine with smart sense mode as it does a fine job minimizing or eliminating cogging. Fluke or not, I think I'll steer clear of the sensored TPs. They seem to do alright for everyone else. As they say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander ;-) Cheers mate.

You can still make the higher KV motors work, I believe @jondilly1974 is running a high KV TP56XX with success, but it really depends... Maybe it would make sense to create a list with different motors and feedback here from the Forum to see which motor and KV works great with the XLX2.
Regarding the SW. Castle had some issues with XLX2s burning up with d-wind motors. They eventually published an update and you can't downgrade the software, at least on the newer ones. I have a MMX8s which uses the same firmware and I ran some tests between the newer and older firmware. And I was surprised to see how much of a difference it made for my d-wind motors. The temps are significantly better and there is also a smoother startup (less cogging). So even if you're able to downgrade to the older firmware, it's not recommended for d-wind motors.

 

[TN-RC]

@LibertyMKiii Raz posted, ya. It looks like a good one.

 

[LibertyMKiii]

Awesome, thank you. One follow up question. Does that apply to both firmware versions 2.11 AND 2.12? In another thread someone wrote that 6P motors worked better with the 2.11 firmware but there doesn't appear to be a way to flash the ESC back to 2.11 once it has been updated to 2.12. Any truth to this to your knowledge or does this also fall into the realm of unsubstantiated rumor?

Top notch man, I really appreciate it. So keeping it under 1500KV is where its at when it comes to the large can TP motors. Muchas gracias Cap'n KiTris

Yeah thanks man. tppower.de is where I've been looking, though Islandhobbynut has a nice selection of TP motors as well that I've been perusing. I'm fine with smart sense mode as it does a fine job minimizing or eliminating cogging. Fluke or not, I think I'll steer clear of the sensored TPs. They seem to do alright for everyone else. As they say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander ;-) Cheers mate.

I had seen Jason Flores (Flo-pack) was looking for original firmware XLX2's because he didnt like the new one...
Also James McCoy has been running on the original ESCs if that tells you anything.

He had confirmed about the RPM sync issues on 6-pole motors.

Info from James is treated as the gospel and I didn't need any more confirmation

 

[RC-Dude]

How do you guys set your brakes for speed runs. At a certain percentage or drag brake?

 

[LibertyMKiii]

How do you guys set your brakes for speed runs. At a certain percentage or drag brake?

I like drag brakes as a fail safe incase my radio looses reception it will auto apply the brakes.

I don't recall settings maybe something like 30% drag brake.
Then brake percentage depends on the motor KV and gearing. That is something you will want to test out at lower speeds and medium speeds to confirm.

Usually something around 60-80% for single motor cars. Around 20-40% for dual motor cars.

 

[Diem Turner]

How do you guys set your brakes for speed runs. At a certain percentage or drag brake?

I set my brakes to 100% in the ESC and then adjust the brake rate on my transmitter so that I get max braking but without locking up the wheels. Depending on gearing that can be anything from 40-100%.

 

[speeding_Infraction]

Wow there is a lot of knowledge in this thread. Great read!!

 

[LibertyMKiii]

These top speed runners really want a 2028 motor with 1700+Kv
Maybe one day Castle will make one

Wow looking back at this old thread. That happened... Thanks Castle, now if you could do wired connections instead of the solder on tabs.

I will say the TP4080 is the best of both worlds. It has peak power levels of 1/5 motors while being a high rpm 4 pole. Win win.

A little more clarification on the xlx2 software as I have learned more on this. The original is best with 6pole motors. It has far less of the sync issues with rpms over 30k. Problem was that high rpms on 4 pole motors this software had issues.
They blocked things in castle link so that you are forced to update software. There is no going back to that one.

Newer software is safe now for 4 pole motors but you can't push a 6 pole motor beyond 30k with heavy amperage loads in the speed run application.
Short bursts in bashing scenarios are different...

 

[RC-Dude]

Thanks for the brake infos. I'll need to go up on the percentage.

Does anybody know what are the Amps drawn when braking - compared to acceleration?

 

[rotauq]

Thanks for the brake infos. I'll need to go up on the percentage.

Does anybody know what are the Amps drawn when braking - compared to acceleration?

They go down almost instantly (green is the current line)
What the log doesn't show is that instead of drawing current, you start to generate, which translate into heat

 

[RC-Dude]

Thanks!

 

[TN-RC]

I like drag brakes as a fail safe incase my radio looses reception it will auto apply the brakes.

I don't recall settings maybe something like 30% drag brake.
Then brake percentage depends on the motor KV and gearing. That is something you will want to test out at lower speeds and medium speeds to confirm.

Usually something around 60-80% for single motor cars. Around 20-40% for dual motor cars.

For myself I think I ESC is set to 25% or 33% (I run the 160a Spektrum) then in my radio I have a 0.8s delay (0-100) (also a 0.2s return speed) that way I don't break the car lose since I like to slam on the brakes, I go from 100% to -100% right away.

Wow looking back at this old thread. That happened... Thanks Castle, now if you could do wired connections instead of the solder on tabs.

I will say the TP4080 is the best of both worlds. It has peak power levels of 1/5 motors while being a high rpm 4 pole. Win win.

A little more clarification on the xlx2 software as I have learned more on this. The original is best with 6pole motors. It has far less of the sync issues with rpms over 30k. Problem was that high rpms on 4 pole motors this software had issues.
They blocked things in castle link so that you are forced to update software. There is no going back to that one.

Newer software is safe now for 4 pole motors but you can't push a 6 pole motor beyond 30k with heavy amperage loads in the speed run application.
Short bursts in bashing scenarios are different...

wow 1700kv, it's like castle reads your posts.
Also, we don't need to find the 200mph+ motor anymore, we found it. To 209mph and beyond!!!!

 

[LibertyMKiii]

wow 1700kv, it's like castle reads your posts.

Right?!?!

Also, we don't need to find the 200mph+ motor anymore, we found it. To 209mph and beyond!!!!

Supposedly the first time James broke 200mph it was with a single motor setup, but we never saw "under the hood" to confirm that.

Now the cars are running dual motors which is a different and a better approach in my opinion. Amperage loads are cut in half (not exaggerating). This makes it easier on the batteries and all parts of the system except for the metal parts that now have to deal with so much power.

 

[Dan B.]

What the log doesn't show is that instead of drawing current, you start to generate, which translate into heat

Yes, that’s true. It’s like a 1:1 turbocharged car whose boost gauge doesn’t register vacuum when you lift.
And I’m pretty sure that’s why Raz was frying repetitive XLX2’s the second he hit the brakes with that funky LMT motor. At least we can learn on his dime. Not that I’d drop that kind of coin on a motor (or MGM ESC!!!) but I appreciate what he’s doing out there. And enjoy it while he lasts, if Bibi succeeds and the region descends into chaos we might see Raz back in Florida soon looking for a good road…