Lipo battery use update. SMC gets ?

[Ari33]

Ain’t gonna lie. This is what scares me the most. Blowing serious cash on lipos and this poop happens. I haven’t been in the game long enough to know what is a good brand to use. I’ve only been exposed to Traxxas, gensacearespammers, lectron pro and now spektrum.

I don’t use the RC’s as much as you guys, so this is another area I’m very green in.

Try the turnigy graphenes, I own 12 of them now for quad and plane use and have had zero issues with any of them in over 3 years, my go to brand now. Cant praise them enough.
Wish I could say the same for all the other brands I've tried but I cant..
2nd best for me are the Nanotechs... no real issues they have just degraded a lot faster and not half as hardy as the Graphenes.

Worst for me.. and by a country mile... were the Turnigy Bolt HV's. Every second one was a DOA and the ones that weren't only lasted about 20-30 cycles (if they didn't puff up on the first 5 cycles) before they are binworthy. Never ever, ever, ever again..

 

[jkflow]

With all this said. Good-bad-indifferent, my own experience is that they stand behind their stuff. Purchased 2 4S in Dec and one cell on one pack crapped out. Contacted them and it will be replaced no charge. Ordered those lipo alarms as well. Everything Danny stated makes sense and is verifiable. You could stay with a cheaper alarm model and set the alarm lower to avoid early alarms from spikes (maybe 3.4 or experiment) but to me that would be a bandaid solution and probably differ between lipo alarm types/models. Bandaid solution IMHO but will use that until delivered. Alternate, use a timer but that depends on how you drive.

 

[DoNoHarm]

Try the turnigy graphenes, I own 12 of them now for quad and plane use and have had zero issues with any of them in over 3 years, my go to brand now. Cant praise them enough.
Wish I could say the same for all the other brands I've tried but I cant..
2nd best for me are the Nanotechs... no real issues they have just degraded a lot faster and not half as hardy as the Graphenes.

Worst for me.. and by a country mile... were the Turnigy Bolt HV's. Every second one was a DOA and the ones that weren't only lasted about 20-30 cycles (if they didn't puff up on the first 5 cycles) before they are binworthy. Never ever, ever, ever again..

See, this is very interesting to me- as I’ve always heard turnigy’s nanotech series to be a very stepped on battery brand and back in the day everybody hated them for short life and hard puffing. A bad habit I know, but I let this scar turnigy to me personally so I never gave their graphene series a chance because of it. I guess they’ve turned their imagine and products around, which is good to hear.

 

[Danny/SMC]

While I personally wont purchase SMC packs due to all mine puffing. They were still good packs and had good punch, but they all puffed with just casual use. I have 4 of the packs, so maybe my experience isnt common since I only tried 4 of them, and they probably all came from the same batch as they were purchased about the same time as each other. But it wasnt a good picture for me.
This was Racing once a week with the 2s shorty packs. never even got close to LVC and always put in storage. They would still swell. Not crazy puffing, but noticeable puffing on each side none the less.
My other racing packs haven't swelled at all after 8 moths of weekly use.

I do love my SMC motors and SMC esc's and its a shame SMC got out of the motor and esc business, but I understand why. I just wish I would have gotten more of them, lol.

I will also say that I think it speak volumes that Danny ( @Danny/SMC ) came here to discuss their batteries.
Its awesome when companies have a voice with the community and it means the world to hobbies like this.
Ive had email exchanges with Danny and I know hes a stand up guy, and SMC is a stand up company that stand by their goods.

I have not tried any SMC packs for bashing, so I cant comment on that.

Thanks again Danny for coming here.

I assume you had issues with the Premium 4600 shorties. These were made with oil and tended to epxand more then most cells. It could of also been the Extreme 4000s as those had very low IR but once again they used oil. What is very frustrating is I can duplicate what end users see when I test on my equipment. I do have allot of equipment to test cells and packs and have been doing test for 30+ years now. Only thing we can do is once we see a model has an issue is to try and fix the issue or work on a new model The DV series 5000 shorty is very reliable and has higher IR which makes it very well suited for mod racing as it removes some of the bottom end punch which is not required in mod. Our 5100 Extreme Graphene pack has the best power out of all the shorties in the market apart from other companies who use the same cells as we do as these are not exclusive to us. The reliability is actually good for such a strong pack with high mAh.

If you want to give anyone of these 2 packs a try I will refund you if it doesn't run to your liking or has an issue as I'm very confident in all our latest packs.

I've attached a picture of my testing setup for cells and packs. If anyone has questions about Lipos feel free to ask me here or email me at [email protected]

See, this is very interesting to me- as I’ve always heard turnigy’s nanotech series to be a very stepped on battery brand and back in the day everybody hated them for short life and hard puffing. A bad habit I know, but I let this scar turnigy to me personally so I never gave their graphene series a chance because of it. I guess they’ve turned their imagine and products around, which is good to hear.

There is no company immune to having a batch of packs or model that tends to expand/swell/puff. The same is to be said with cell shorting both of these issues are the negatives on Lipo cells. The positive thing is they have much more power and mAh then other cell chemistries. Cylce life is very high when used properly and in the proper conditions for the specific pack model. So a company who cares will make changes to try and have the best possible cells/packs but there is always the risk of changes within batches as all it takes is one of the materials to have an issue and it will compromise the entire cell.

I don't want to claim I know everything but I'm much more aware of things then most as I've been doing this for over 30 years. I know almost all the factories that make RC cells and I can tell you for sure there is no factory that makes 100% defect free cells. Some are better then others as they have better equipment or care more about what they sell. I do my best to deal with good factories but as mentioned in an earlier post all the factories making RC cells are not the best equipped factories like the factories making cell phone cells or real car cells.

 

[Wmorgan]

When it comes to Lipo batteries there are many things that can account for them expanding and swelling. At SMC we have always focused on providing packs with higher performance as we typically want to sell packs that make a difference. That being said with the new breed of RC kits that are bigger and have more high power systems we had to reconsider our pack lineup. When selling packs with more power this means the cells have lower internal resistance. This equates to less voltage drop under load so the packs will discharge more under load as the cutoff will not kick in as early. The RTR ESCs supplied by most companies don't have an adjustable cutoff and cutoff to low. Running cells to low under load increases the chance of cell damage and cell expansion.

We released the DV series to accomodate the new breed of vehicles and the cells in these packs focus on maximum reliability at the expense of some performance but feedback has been very good on these so far. We also have very good info on our site under the Technical Info section on the top bar. For those who want to better understand Lipos this can be very helpful.

The pack shown in the first post is one of our 5000-6S Premium series which focuses on low IR to maximize voltage under load. These are small cells designed to fit a 3S in the standard 3S case and a 4S in the 3S case and 6S in 4S case. Tyipcally guys who run normal 1/10th size vehicles where a 2S pack size is required and want to go with 3S will use these smaller packs. We also sell these as a low center of gravity race pack for 1/8th scale offroad racing so you get a light and thinner 4S pack. The 6S pack can be run in a 1/8th scale buggy where a 4S pack will fit. So these are the main applications for these packs. We do offer under the DV series a 6500-6S and 8000-6S that are designed to fit in the Arrma vehicles listed in the Arrma Battery guide on the top bar of our site. These are bigger cells and under the DV series makes them more reliable. I suspect some will not want to buy these as they cost more the 5000-6S but these should be the packs used Arrma 6S kits. To compare our smaller 5000-6S pack with any other pack that is made with bigger cells is not a fair comparison. We have sold hundreds of these new 5000s and so far we have not heard any negative issues about them. That being said there is always the certain applications where a certain model of pack can have issues. For example if you run the packs down to low and use them in very demanding conditions like tall grass or sticky mud this puts allot more stress on the packs due to the amp draw being higher. In these applications a bigger pack will do better for sure.

I've been selling RC packs for over 30 years and have my own testing equipment and I can tell you that there is no company/factory that makes 100% perfect cells and there will always be the chance of cells going bad due to manfacturing defects. This is why we offer a one year warranty against manufacturing defects. If a cell shorts out which is one of the most common issues with Lipo cells we will take care of it within the first year of purchase. Many of our competitors will not warranty packs when a cell has an issue. Also when it comes to the very low priced packs you must be careful as most of them are not made using premium materials in fact RC grade cells are made with Lithium Cobalt Oxide in the cathode and many of these very low priced packs use some sort of substitute for Lithium Cobalt Oxide which decreases the cycle life. We can easily offer these packs at the same prices as others do but we believe this is not worth it. You might as well pay a bit more and get a real Lithium Cobalt Oxide pack that has a warranty.

Hope this post can help some better understand Lipo packs and if you check out our Technical Info section on the top bar of our site I think you will get even more knowledge.

So how can i take advantage of the one year warranty? I'd like to replace the 6S battery and give SMC another chance.

 

[slick2500]

So how can i take advantage of the one year warranty? I'd like to replace the 6S battery and give SMC another chance.

https://www.smc-racing.net/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=16

 

[jkflow]

Bottom of the page - battery warranty . I couldn't get to that info using slick's link.

https://www.smc-racing.net

 

[Danny/SMC]

So how can i take advantage of the one year warranty? I'd like to replace the 6S battery and give SMC another chance.

Our warranty doesn't cover packs that swell unless it's one cell in the pack that has swelled. If all cells have swelled this typically means the pack was used in the wrong application or not used properly. Any company that warranties packs that swell is either selling them at a supoer high price so they make allot of profit or they will not stay in business. It very easy to swell any pack from any company.

Best thing to do is to email me and give me more info about your pack that swelled. Like the voltages of each cell. If you open up the case are all 6 cells swelled or only one ? If it's only one then this would be a defect same as if one cell in a pack dies this is a defect. If tyou pack doesn't fall under our warranty we do offer a disount on replacement packs as our goal is to keep people involved in this hoby.

[email protected]

 

[Wmorgan]

Our warranty doesn't cover packs that swell unless it's one cell in the pack that has swelled. If all cells have swelled this typically means the pack was used in the wrong application or not used properly. Any company that warranties packs that swell is either selling them at a supoer high price so they make allot of profit or they will not stay in business. It very easy to swell any pack from any company.

Best thing to do is to email me and give me more info about your pack that swelled. Like the voltages of each cell. If you open up the case are all 6 cells swelled or only one ? If it's only one then this would be a defect same as if one cell in a pack dies this is a defect. If tyou pack doesn't fall under our warranty we do offer a disount on replacement packs as our goal is to keep people involved in this hoby.

[email protected]

I'll open the pack this evening and take some pictures and send you an email. Just to be clear, opening the hard case won't void my warranty, right?

 

[Danny/SMC]

Only way we can replace this pack free of charge is if a cell has shorted which means it will be much lower then the others or if only one cell swelled out of the 6 which can happen. If you open up the case and all cells have swelled then this would fall under our crash/damage warranty where we offer you a discount on a replacment pack. If there is only one cell swelled then this falls under a free replacement. Feel free to email me if you need more info.

 

[klagr]

I have had several SMC Packs and for me they have been great! I have learned to be sure and follow the rules for charging and discharging and they are all going strong. Four 2S Packs (two for traxxas slash and two for Arrma Kraton 6s), two 3S Packs (Traxxas Slash), and one 6s (Arrma Kraton). One of the 3S packs is swelling, but it does not seem to impact performance.

Purchased 11/28/18:
1 - True Spec Premium 11.1V 5400mAh 135Amps/90C - Swelling
1 - True Spec Premium 11.1V 4500mAh 85Amps/90C - Perfect Condition

Purchased 6/27/19:
2 - True Spec DV 7.4V 6500mAh 120Amps/75C wired hardcase Traxxas - Perfect Condition
2 - True Spec DV 7.4V 6500mAh 120Amps/75C wired hardcase EC5 - Perfect Condition
1 - True Spec Premium 22.2V 5400mAh 135Amps/90C with G10 plates EC5 - Perfect Condition

SMC is my go to for batteries.

 

[Danny/SMC]

Glad to hear you are having good luck with our packs. The Premium 4500 and 5400 are cells made with oil to increase the performance but these are a bit more finicky and really need to be treated properly or else they can swell up. That being said in general all Lipo cells swell/expand some under normal use. You can check out the video below which mentions this. So in theory we should have extra room inside our hardcases to allow natural cell expansion which doesn't mean the cells are bad. Typically cells are made at maximum size to squeeze as much into the cell as possible.

I assume your 5400-3S has the case rounded a bit. This is due to the cells natural expansion and the cells filling up the case. I would be willing to bet your 5400-6S is now a bit thicker as well but since it's not in a case this will not show up as much.

Listen to what the engineer says about cells under charge and discharge.

 

[klagr]

Glad to hear you are having good luck with our packs. The Premium 4500 and 5400 are cells made with oil to increase the performance but these are a bit more finicky and really need to be treated properly or else they can swell up. That being said in general all Lipo cells swell/expand some under normal use. You can check out the video below which mentions this. So in theory we should have extra room inside our hardcases to allow natural cell expansion which doesn't mean the cells are bad. Typically cells are made at maximum size to squeeze as much into the cell as possible.

I assume your 5400-3S has the case rounded a bit. This is due to the cells natural expansion and the cells filling up the case. I would be willing to bet your 5400-6S is now a bit thicker as well but since it's not in a case this will not show up as much.

Listen to what the engineer says about cells under charge and discharge.

Understood. The 5400-3S has taken the most abuse and despite the swelling still has great power and run time. I have not pulled the case to see if it is one or all cells, but it has swollen enough to unclip on side of the case. If the 5400-6S is swelling, it is not showing on the outside. I am going to look into the Precision Lipo Alarm as I am running stock esc's and motors in both vehicles.

I also purchased the HOTA D6 Plus Dual Channel Charger - 2 x 150W AC , 2 x 325W DCD6 Plus(AC/DC) from you and it has really helped me maintain my batteries better.

Thanks for the information and support of your products.

 

[Danny/SMC]

Understood. The 5400-3S has taken the most abuse and despite the swelling still has great power and run time. I have not pulled the case to see if it is one or all cells, but it has swollen enough to unclip on side of the case. If the 5400-6S is swelling, it is not showing on the outside. I am going to look into the Precision Lipo Alarm as I am running stock esc's and motors in both vehicles.

I also purchased the HOTA D6 Plus Dual Channel Charger - 2 x 150W AC , 2 x 325W DCD6 Plus(AC/DC) from you and it has really helped me maintain my batteries better.

Thanks for the information and support of your products.

You will get increased cycle life and less risk of cell damage if you use our alarm. When using it on a model that runs 2 packs in series use it on the pack that is connected to the ESCs negative wire. By setting it at 3.7v you should be at the proper voltage range when the alarm goes off.

Glad to hear you like the D6 Plus I've tested allot of chargers and in my opinion the HOTA is the best AC/DC charger as it charges very well and has good balance current and all the features you would want in a charger at a very good price.

 

[slick2500]

You will get increased cycle life and less risk of cell damage if you use our alarm. When using it on a model that runs 2 packs in series use it on the pack that is connected to the ESCs negative wire. By setting it at 3.7v you should be at the proper voltage range when the alarm goes off.

Glad to hear you like the D6 Plus I've tested allot of chargers and in my opinion the HOTA is the best AC/DC charger as it charges very well and has good balance current and all the features you would want in a charger at a very good price.

I've found a lot of the other chargers use HOTA guts in them. When I turn on my Thunder AC680 it says HOTA CHARGER then goes to the menu. I think my B6AC + said that as well.

 

[Danny/SMC]

http://www.hota-exp.com/index.php/pro_l_1.html

Not sure how many other chargers they make and I haven't tested there older chargers but I can tell you that the specs of there D6 series and H6 are very good and charge very well. I don't like naming other companies which I think are not good but I will just say that the majority of AC/DC chargers sold haven't really impressed me with the quality of charge.

 

[Wmorgan]

Only way we can replace this pack free of charge is if a cell has shorted which means it will be much lower then the others or if only one cell swelled out of the 6 which can happen. If you open up the case and all cells have swelled then this would fall under our crash/damage warranty where we offer you a discount on a replacment pack. If there is only one cell swelled then this falls under a free replacement. Feel free to email me if you need more info.

Below is a picture of the pack now. No swelling now, but now i get a "Cell error" when i attempt to balance charge it.

So can i get a replacement?

 

[Danny/SMC]

Below is a picture of the pack now. No swelling now, but now i get a "Cell error" when i attempt to balance charge it.

So can i get a replacement?

View attachment 61227View attachment 61228

As mentioned to you via email I will need you to get me the voltages of all cells in the pack so I can determine if a cell went bad.

 

[PowerDubs]

I had a battery give me an error on a charger one time. Somebody told me the solution was to change a setting in the charger to something I forget- just for a few minutes to trick it into putting juice into the pack- and then switch it back to normal and everything was fine afterward.

 

[Danny/SMC]

I had a battery give me an error on a charger one time. Somebody told me the solution was to change a setting in the charger to something I forget- just for a few minutes to trick it into putting juice into the pack- and then switch it back to normal and everything was fine afterward.

Before someone tries to bump up a pack it's always best to make sure the issue is not with a bad cell. This is why it's important to be able to either have a charger that can display cell voltages without charging or have a cell checker like the one in the link below.

https://www.smc-racing.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=113&product_id=476