M2C ZRS Shock Cap & Piston Upside Down Experiment

[cfrazee]

I am on a mission to mitigate some of my Kraton's chassis slap on 1.5' - 2.5' jumps at my local outdoor track. When bashing I could care less about chassis slap as I typically launch into a downhill grass landing, however, running around a track meant for 1/8th scale buggys exposes horrible handling characteristics of the Kraton when it slaps. My rig is a V4 BLX with EXB towers, braces, M2C chassis, and hinge pin mounts...so heavier than stock. When at the track I run with 1/8th scale truggy proline wheels/tires (so fun to be gripped up with 6s!). When landing some of the smaller jumps on track my rig slaps excessively and often upsets steering into a corner or disrupts/delays smooth braking. I am on the hunt to mitigate this slap on the smaller jumps at the track to improve smooth handling characteristics.

Shocks are fully upright (outside tower position), preload is set so the arms are level, droop screws are all dialed, and here is the kicker...I am running Losi 100wt shock oil (1325cst). Still slaps from a 12" static drop and on some of the smaller jumps at my local track. I come from a downhill mountain bike racing background - suspension is hugely important. No debate #1 of any fork/shock setup is spring rate...period. The challenge with these Kratons is the limited spring options that are a higher spring rate compared to stock and the correct length. I have read all of the charts and info I can on this forum and the only option I have found seems to be identified by @East tactics. However... these look stiffffffffffffff. I am concerned running mega stiff springs and the proper weight oil to achieve adequate damping will lead to a rig that will handle like a rock. I ordered some but fedex lost my package. Does anybody have any alternative springs for the Kraton that are 15-25% stiffer than stock?

Stock:
Front -
Rate: 6.2 lb/in
Length: 85mm

Rear -
Rate: 5.0 lb/in
Length 95mm

MW Components (Century Spring)
Front -
Part# 12477
Length: 2.75in (70mm)
Rate: 9.5

Rear -
Part# 1631
Length: 3.75in
Rate: 10 lb/in

Since fedex lost my package with the stiffer springs detailed above I decided to test something else. I have a new set of m2c zrs shock caps and pistons. The typical installation details that the piston should be oriented with slot channels downward - this orientation slows the rebound stroke of the shock. I just had the wild idea to flip the orientation of the piston to slow the compression stroke of the shock. Finished the install last night but need to swap a bulkhead before testing at the track. All variables will be kept the same with the exception of the new shock caps and pistons. Same spring rate, preload/ride height, and oil weight Losi 100wt (1325cst). Wish the heavy girl some luck! I will report back once I run at the track and bash spot.

 

[SrC]

A slower compression rate by inverting the pistons can help to some extent. Rebound will be faster. Also can work against you depending how rough the terrain/track is. You are trying to make your rather heavy rig do something on a confined technical track that may be impossible. Not designed for. Driver input at some point must accommodate/adapt, when good enough will have to do. Did you try laying down the shocks? You will get a more progressive shock stroke through its travel which increases more at extreme compression. More droop at the rear can prevent nose diving sometimes, minimzing some chassis slap. These rigs are bashers and slap is part of its design. Built into the platform. Keeping a rig very light is usually most beneficial for technical driving and jumps ( doubles and triples) found on some tracks. Also, going too thick of a shock oil and you will lose some steering, both on throttle and off throttle. There's always some tradeoffs in other areas when trying to dial in one aspect.

I know spring rates are hard to find. Your ordered springs were lost, so you quickly gave up on them as a Possible solution.???? Still it's trial and error what rates will work best.
You acknowledged that spring rate and not so much Damping rate is the focus here. True.
Some ideas.
Good luck.

 

[ABabyEater]

Check out some springs for the Nero. Close to the same size shocks, but typically significantly stiffer. Softer Nero springs should be in yhe 12lb/in range.

 

[Infraction666]

I just ordered those from the fireteam, should be a little more stiff then stock

 

[cfrazee]

A slower compression rate by inverting the pistons can help to some extent. Rebound will be faster. Also can work against you depending how rough the terrain/track is. You are trying to make your rather heavy rig do something on a confined technical track that may be impossible. Not designed for. Driver input at some point must accommodate/adapt, when good enough will have to do. Did you try laying down the shocks? You will get a more progressive shock stroke through its travel which increases more at extreme compression. More droop at the rear can prevent nose diving sometimes, minimzing some chassis slap. These rigs are bashers and slap is part of its design. Built into the platform. Keeping a rig very light is usually most beneficial for technical driving and jumps ( doubles and triples) found on some tracks. Also, going too thick of a shock oil and you will lose some steering, both on throttle and off throttle. There's always some tradeoffs in other areas when trying to dial in one aspect.

I know spring rates are hard to find. Your ordered springs were lost, so you quickly gave up on them as a Possible solution.???? Still it's trial and error what rates will work best.
You acknowledged that spring rate and not so much Damping rate is the focus here. True.
Some ideas.
Good luck.

Thanks for the response. Some awesome advice, I appreciate it! Totally agree that the Kraton, especially mine with heavy aluminum upgrades, is not a precision track weapon. I reach for my 1/8 scale Tekno buggy when the fast guys show up at the track. My goal with the truck is to have a Kraton that can withstand a bash session (don't care at all about chassis slap there) then throw the track wheels and tires on and not be a total turd around the track. Completely acknowledge the Kraton is not a race platform, im just trying to improve handling characteristics. Fully acknowledge bashing and track running are require opposite setup, however, I feel mitigating slap on very small airs found on track is a reasonable attainable goal.

Interesting note on the laying down the shocks. I was under the impression that mounting them at the furthest point outward (more vertical) provided the best platform for landing jumps. I will certainly lay them down and give it a test!

As far as droop goes I've maxed out droop both front and rear to the point I am comfortable with, not trying to start churning through shock ends.

I spent $50 on the springs that FedEx lost. Further research indicated those spring rates are likely far too stiff for good all around handling. Someone mentioned in another thread that the new Fireteam springs are 10-15% stiffer and nearly identical length. Have a set on pre-order and very much looking forward to giving them a shot!

A slower compression rate by inverting the pistons can help to some extent. Rebound will be faster. Also can work against you depending how rough the terrain/track is. You are trying to make your rather heavy rig do something on a confined technical track that may be impossible. Not designed for. Driver input at some point must accommodate/adapt, when good enough will have to do. Did you try laying down the shocks? You will get a more progressive shock stroke through its travel which increases more at extreme compression. More droop at the rear can prevent nose diving sometimes, minimzing some chassis slap. These rigs are bashers and slap is part of its design. Built into the platform. Keeping a rig very light is usually most beneficial for technical driving and jumps ( doubles and triples) found on some tracks. Also, going too thick of a shock oil and you will lose some steering, both on throttle and off throttle. There's always some tradeoffs in other areas when trying to dial in one aspect.

I know spring rates are hard to find. Your ordered springs were lost, so you quickly gave up on them as a Possible solution.???? Still it's trial and error what rates will work best.
You acknowledged that spring rate and not so much Damping rate is the focus here. True.
Some ideas.
Good luck.

Thanks for the response. Some awesome advice, I appreciate it! Totally agree that the Kraton, especially mine with heavy aluminum upgrades, is not a precision track weapon. I reach for my 1/8 scale Tekno buggy when the fast guys show up at the track. My goal with the truck is to have a Kraton that can withstand a bash session (don't care at all about chassis slap there) then throw the track wheels and tires on and not be a total turd around the track. Completely acknowledge the Kraton is not a race platform, im just trying to improve handling characteristics. Fully acknowledge bashing and track running are require opposite setup, however, I feel mitigating slap on very small airs found on track is a reasonable attainable goal.

Interesting note on the laying down the shocks. I was under the impression that mounting them at the furthest point outward (more vertical) provided the best platform for landing jumps. I will certainly lay them down and give it a test!

As far as droop goes I've maxed out droop both front and rear to the point I am comfortable with, not trying to start churning through shock ends.

I spent $50 on the springs that FedEx lost. Further research indicated those spring rates are likely far too stiff for good all around handling. Someone mentioned in another thread that the new Fireteam springs are 10-15% stiffer and nearly identical length. Have a set on pre-order and very much looking forward to giving them a shot.

I just ordered those from the fireteam, should be a little more stiff then stock
View attachment 196881

Where did you order them? I put in a pre order with horizon. Seems like mid February before they will have them.

 

[SrC]

The challenge to make any rig hook up the track is what it is all about. Trial + error. Finding the best spring rates/preload helps much.
I love my Tekno MT410 on 4s.

 

[Infraction666]

Thanks for the response. Some awesome advice, I appreciate it! Totally agree that the Kraton, especially mine with heavy aluminum upgrades, is not a precision track weapon. I reach for my 1/8 scale Tekno buggy when the fast guys show up at the track. My goal with the truck is to have a Kraton that can withstand a bash session (don't care at all about chassis slap there) then throw the track wheels and tires on and not be a total turd around the track. Completely acknowledge the Kraton is not a race platform, im just trying to improve handling characteristics. Fully acknowledge bashing and track running are require opposite setup, however, I feel mitigating slap on very small airs found on track is a reasonable attainable goal.

Interesting note on the laying down the shocks. I was under the impression that mounting them at the furthest point outward (more vertical) provided the best platform for landing jumps. I will certainly lay them down and give it a test!

As far as droop goes I've maxed out droop both front and rear to the point I am comfortable with, not trying to start churning through shock ends.

I spent $50 on the springs that FedEx lost. Further research indicated those spring rates are likely far too stiff for good all around handling. Someone mentioned in another thread that the new Fireteam springs are 10-15% stiffer and nearly identical length. Have a set on pre-order and very much looking forward to giving them a shot!

Thanks for the response. Some awesome advice, I appreciate it! Totally agree that the Kraton, especially mine with heavy aluminum upgrades, is not a precision track weapon. I reach for my 1/8 scale Tekno buggy when the fast guys show up at the track. My goal with the truck is to have a Kraton that can withstand a bash session (don't care at all about chassis slap there) then throw the track wheels and tires on and not be a total turd around the track. Completely acknowledge the Kraton is not a race platform, im just trying to improve handling characteristics. Fully acknowledge bashing and track running are require opposite setup, however, I feel mitigating slap on very small airs found on track is a reasonable attainable goal.

Interesting note on the laying down the shocks. I was under the impression that mounting them at the furthest point outward (more vertical) provided the best platform for landing jumps. I will certainly lay them down and give it a test!

As far as droop goes I've maxed out droop both front and rear to the point I am comfortable with, not trying to start churning through shock ends.

I spent $50 on the springs that FedEx lost. Further research indicated those spring rates are likely far too stiff for good all around handling. Someone mentioned in another thread that the new Fireteam springs are 10-15% stiffer and nearly identical length. Have a set on pre-order and very much looking forward to giving them a shot.

Where did you order them? I put in a pre order with horizon. Seems like mid February before they will have them.

I ordered them from Www.Tamico.de

 

[SrC]

I like running Truggy pins, Zero offset, most of the time on many of my rigs. Especially my Tekno MT.
I have no track here, but set up my new TLRT in track config. 4s etc. Not as a basher. It is in no way even close to a Tekno Buggy however.
I started RC exclusively on the track years back. My rigs never even saw the street/ parks/ fields. Building track kits.
Dialing can be a bear and take time. But rewarding once you get it just right. I find that we all have different lines at the track based on how we drive and our rigs. What also makes it work.
But once a track is Blue grooved, pretty much the fastest guys are always running that one line.

 

[cfrazee]

The challenge to make any rig hook up the track is what it is all about. Trial + error. Finding the best spring rates/preload helps much.
I love my Tekno MT410 on 4s.

That thing must be spicy on 4s! That's what I run my EB48.2 on!

I like running Truggy pins, Zero offset, most of the time on many of my rigs. Especially my Tekno MT.
I have no track here, but set up my new TLRT in track config. 4s etc. Not as a basher. It is in no way even close to a Tekno Buggy however.
I started RC exclusively on the track years back. My rigs never even saw the street/ parks/ fields. Building track kits.
Dialing can be a bear and take time. But rewarding once you get it just right. I find that we all have different lines at the track based on how we drive and our rigs. What also makes it work.
But once a track is Blue grooved, pretty much the fastest guys are always running that one line.

Truggy + pins + loam = a smile on my face. I will keep playing around with setup one variable at a time. Excited to test the m2c zrs shock setup in the next couple of days.

 

[cfrazee]

There was a noticeable improvement in the handling of the car however I'm guessing that can be attributed to the emulsion style shock caps vs bladder. The car was much more planted in rough sections of track. I ended up running 80 weight shock oil. When installed with the 100 weight the rebound was shockingly slow. In terms of chassis slap, there was a minor improvement. Still bottomed out from jumps that I feel are too small to warrant slap.

Attached is a video showing slap and the subsequent upset of the handling. I'm not the greatest driver but I would love if the car would land more plush and controlled.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vevqtxs49yfBVJARA

I've come to the realization that I am chasing something that can only be cured by spring rate. Sure shock oils can help slow the compression stroke, however, that greatly impacts the overall handling characteristics of the car. No replacement for proper spring rates based on the weight of the vehicle. Fingers crossed the Fireteam springs have the desired effect.

 

[21STalion]

I think you have similar goals and desires as I did, but I also think that the Kraton is probably too heavy. I ended up building a Talion as my custom 6s Arrma and for what sounds like you are looking for you would probably be better served with a vehicle between Talion and Typhoon in size - same as me. Either a Light Talion or a Heavy Typhoon

Check out my build thread for very detailed reviews about each part I added and the weight.

I am a heavy basher and I also am frequently tracking the car. One car to do it all.

But of course, you will always be chasing the tekno if you meet a serious racer.

Good luck.

 

[ERS]

Although I’m not setting up my truck for racing like yourself, I’m still looking for a good all around jumping and bashing suspension setup. I want to minimize bottoming out as much as possible while still retaining good general handling characteristics.

I ran the East Tactics recommended springs (FR: 9.4 lbs/in and RR: 8.2 lbs/in) with 4K cst oil and 3K cst oil. For my truck (slightly over stock weight) I found those springs to be far to heavy. Sure they were ok for landing big jumps but for general handling and small jumps they were pretty terrible.

I found these new springs here:
https://www.leespring.com/compression-springs?search=LC082M10S

FR: 7.6 lbs/in
RR: 6.6 lbs/in

I haven’t quite decided what weight fluids to run yet but will probably start with 1K - 2K cst fluid. I’m looking forward to getting these in and giving them a shot. Will let you know how it goes.