Kraton New Arrma 4s 2022 models.

Synchronicity

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You guys are the type that like to let companies dictate to you what you should like and want. I guess thats "getting it" though :eek: :ROFLMAO:

I'm actually the opposite of this and despise much of the way contemporary business and the economy functions through advertising, propaganda and manufactured consent. I'm simply agreeing with his descriptive understanding of how these decisions are made, not claiming this is how it ought to be. I like kits best and wish every model was available as one, but I understand why I can't buy a Kraton kit and am quite surprised they even made a roller available.

RTRs sell best, and the quicker and more foolproof they are to get running out of the box, the more people will buy them especially as consumer products in general become more streamlined and the expectation of instant gratification grows stronger. Both Traxxas and Arrma as the largest basher brands have moved toward an integrated experience with RTRs, electronics, batteries and chargers etc. and I find it unlikely they would do this if not in response to the direction of market demand and potential for greater profits. The EXB rollers were a nod to serious enthusiasts, but the fact that they're already being phased out and migrated to RTR models suggests that serious enthusiasts are a small and not very profitable proportion of their customers. Maybe they're wrong and this is a short-sighted and stubborn decision like so many companies have made before, but the way this hobby and the world have changed in recent decades makes me seriously doubt it.

My intuition - although I have no data to back it up - is that the hobby is dying a slow death. It has shrunk and consolidated over the years and forums like this are a narrow window with a view of only a very small part of it. Traxxas understands that to survive as an R/C company outside the racing scene you need to have broad appeal, flashiness and an easy on-boarding process to compete with the innumerable other activities in the modern attention economy. I think Horizon gets it too based on many of their recent decisions, and that they'll still be around after most R/C companies have gone the way of Hobbico.

Again, I don't like the state of things, and this sentiment extends far beyond R/C, but I don't think I'm making or supporting any crazy claims here, just reasonably interpreting the world as it appears.
 

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I am on the fence about pre ordering the Kraton 4s. My son and I are currently sharing a Granite BLX running on 2s and having a lot of fun, except he is only 5, so there is not a lot of sharing on his part and we need a second vehicle so we can drive together. Does anyone know if the 4s be run on a single 2s to keep the speed down if he wants to drive it? I know the ESC is listed compatible, but the 4S product page says 3s or 4s only.

I don't think we will ever run the Granite on 3s. It's been bulletproof on 2s except for an ESC issue HH warrantied a replacement for promptly. It sounds like 3S is just going to cause things to break on it. I guess my hope with the 4S model would be a bulletproof 3S model, same as how the 3S models are bulletproof on 2S.

I also have no idea what kind of timeframe we are looking at for fulfillment preorders? as all delivery dates are gone from the product page and I missed the HH fathers day giftcard sale :( so I would be paying full price and be at the back of the preorder line at this stage.

Does anyone know historically if there are build quality and QC issues with first runs of new models? I also don't want to be the early adopter who has to deal with that, we just want to bash around with them and have fun.

Maybe I am just better off getting a Big Rock. Any advice or opinions welcome! Thanks.
Or a 3s battery on 50% power. The SLT3 radio allows you to govern the power output.
My intuition - although I have no data to back it up - is that the hobby is dying a slow death. It has shrunk and consolidated over the years and forums like this are a narrow window with a view of only a very small part of it. Traxxas understands that to survive as an R/C company outside the racing scene you need to have broad appeal, flashiness and an easy on-boarding process to compete with the innumerable other activities in the modern attention economy.

I think you are wrong and it's infact the opposite and that is why the EXB lineup is gone. The hobby is actually gaining momentum but those entering it want an RTR that gives them value for their money. One of the hobby shops I deal with here in New Zealand has just stocked up on Team Associated rigs and they sell fast. This hobby is actually pretty cheap to get into IMO.
 
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slick2500

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While I think HH could definitely improve some aspects, I'm going to point out a few things for the positive.

1. If HH didn't come in and acquire Arrma, it wouldn't exist. It was on the verge of going out of business, and HH came in and bought it. The alternative to HH is... nothing. Which is clearly worse.
2. Parts support has actually improved over time. When the V1 Kraton 4S came out, parts support was really bad, you couldn't buy an A-arm for a brand new vehicle for 3-6 months! I had the same experience with my Granite 3S v1. For the most part now, every part you want for current cars is available.
3. The STX2 is gone from Arrma lineup, and replaced with the SLT3/SR315/SLT300 which is superior IMO to the Tactic radios Arrma used to come with.
4. HH's warranty policy is absurdly generous. Honestly, they are way too lenient with their warranty, to the point that people abuse it.

It's arguable that the old Arrma business model was not profitable (enough), so while things were great in the "golden era of Arrma" (whenever that was), it probably was not sustainable. Else they wouldn't have needed to be acquired. You might say they are a great engineering company, but a poor business. And unfortunately those companies don't last.
Parts for the Team Losi Typhon weren't available until like March of this year, for the longest time they didn't even have prices listed for some of the parts and there are still parts that are not yet available. So not parts support is till rather bad.
These parts are still unavailable to purchase directly from Arrma or Horizon only way to buy them is from a rc chop shop.
https://www.horizonhobby.com/product/front-shock-tower-cnc-7075-t6-aluminum-m---tlr/ARA320644.html
https://www.horizonhobby.com/product/rear-shock-tower-cnc-7075-t6-aluminum-m---tlr/ARA320645.html
https://www.horizonhobby.com/product/aluminum-chassis-cnc-7075-t6-swb---tlr/ARA320646.html

Oh I am sure Arrma was profitable under Hobbico, Hobbico was the problem not Arrma or any of it's other brands that it was selling. Hobbico mismanaged their finances that is what led to their demise too many of the big wigs lining their pockets.
 
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Synchronicity

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I think you are wrong and it's infact the opposite and that is why the EXB lineup is gone.

You could be right, but I just find it hard to square the idea that the hobby is growing with the largest company in the space recently going bankrupt, Arrma sinking and having to be bailed out by HH, HPI going bankrupt and being passed around between multiple parent companies before one apparently figured out how to make them profitable again, the hot new basher brand being a small Belgian company with distribution difficulties in North America, and so forth.

The pandemic did seem to generate some new interest, but I think the 10 year trend is still downward.
 

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I am on the fence about pre ordering the Kraton 4s. My son and I are currently sharing a Granite BLX running on 2s and having a lot of fun, except he is only 5, so there is not a lot of sharing on his part and we need a second vehicle so we can drive together. Does anyone know if the 4s be run on a single 2s to keep the speed down if he wants to drive it? I know the ESC is listed compatible, but the 4S product page says 3s or 4s only.

I don't think we will ever run the Granite on 3s. It's been bulletproof on 2s except for an ESC issue HH warrantied a replacement for promptly. It sounds like 3S is just going to cause things to break on it. I guess my hope with the 4S model would be a bulletproof 3S model, same as how the 3S models are bulletproof on 2S.

I also have no idea what kind of timeframe we are looking at for fulfillment preorders? as all delivery dates are gone from the product page and I missed the HH fathers day giftcard sale :( so I would be paying full price and be at the back of the preorder line at this stage.

Does anyone know historically if there are build quality and QC issues with first runs of new models? I also don't want to be the early adopter who has to deal with that, we just want to bash around with them and have fun.

Maybe I am just better off getting a Big Rock. Any advice or opinions welcome! Thanks.
The first production runs are always the worst for having issues, same goes for the 1:1 world. All rcs can and will have QC issues out of the box. At the very least you should do a visual inspection of the car, remove the motor module make sure the pinion has thread lock on the grub screw, Arrma uses so much you should be able to see it, check that there aren't any loose or missing screws, make sure the tires are glued to the wheels properly, make sure the wheel nuts are on tight, rebind the radio and recalibrate the esc. Me knowing how these things are assembled I would do a complete teardown and rebuild of the car as this also helps you familiarize yourself with how to work on it.
You could be right, but I just find it hard to square the idea that the hobby is growing with the largest company in the space recently going bankrupt, Arrma sinking and having to be bailed out by HH, HPI going bankrupt and being passed around between multiple parent companies before one apparently figured out how to make them profitable again, the hot new basher brand being a small Belgian company with distribution difficulties in North America, and so forth.

The pandemic did seem to generate some new interest, but I think the 10 year trend is still downward.
During the pandemic the hobby saw a huge influx of people, but now that everyone is going back to work those numbers took a huge dive. I know before the pandemic the hobby was in a decline especially on the racing side. Tracks were closing all of the time around the country and they still are. The local racing club here closed their doors back in April because there was only like 5 or 6 guys racing and they couldn't afford to keep paying the lease on the space they were renting. The next closest track that I know of is in Sheridan Wyoming and that is a 3.5 hour drive.
 
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My intuition - although I have no data to back it up - is that the hobby is dying a slow death. It has shrunk and consolidated over the years and forums like this are a narrow window with a view of only a very small part of it. Traxxas understands that to survive as an R/C company outside the racing scene you need to have broad appeal, flashiness and an easy on-boarding process to compete with the innumerable other activities in the modern attention economy. I think Horizon gets it too based on many of their recent decisions, and that they'll still be around after most R/C companies have gone the way of Hobbico.
This hobby has always been a niche community, but it's much more open to new people. Bashing, crawling, speedruns, & racing are specific areas where most find it progressively harder to get into. The less individual the activity, the harder it is. Even if you have a group, it's hard to get together once or twice a month. As for the hobby dying, it has never been at a state where you can call it flourishing. Not even close. Traxxas uses flash & wide-spread existence to stay #1. Traxxas has been the largest company in hobby grade RC for a VERY long time, not Hobbico or HH. Traxxas did put a bid in for Hobbico, along with a certain huge Chinese company, but both were outbid by HH. The problem with HH is that they've been trying to stay afloat & catch up with Traxxas at the same time - BUT they seriously don't understand that you can't catch up to the best by doing the same thing they do when you don't have near the resources. Alienating customers with sub-par products isn't going to cut it either.
 
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While I think HH could definitely improve some aspects, I'm going to point out a few things for the positive.

1. If HH didn't come in and acquire Arrma, it wouldn't exist. It was on the verge of going out of business, and HH came in and bought it. The alternative to HH is... nothing. Which is clearly worse.
2. Parts support has actually improved over time. When the V1 Kraton 4S came out, parts support was really bad, you couldn't buy an A-arm for a brand new vehicle for 3-6 months! I had the same experience with my Granite 3S v1. For the most part now, every part you want for current cars is available.
3. The STX2 is gone from Arrma lineup, and replaced with the SLT3/SR315/SLT300 which is superior IMO to the Tactic radios Arrma used to come with.
4. HH's warranty policy is absurdly generous. Honestly, they are way too lenient with their warranty, to the point that people abuse it.

It's arguable that the old Arrma business model was not profitable (enough), so while things were great in the "golden era of Arrma" (whenever that was), it probably was not sustainable. Else they wouldn't have needed to be acquired. You might say they are a great engineering company, but a poor business. And unfortunately those companies don't last.
Yeah horizon warranty saves our asses a lot
I'd be shocked if that buggy wasn't discontinued soon. It never really made any sense. Again, cool engineering exercise. Absolutely zero business case.
The buggy isnt bad... get a racing brand like tekno,losi or tlr. The typhon tlr is just a worst tlr car from what i have heard. Its not bad again but theres superior stuff in the same department
Parts for the Team Losi Typhon weren't available until like March of this year, for the longest time they didn't even have prices listed for some of the parts and there are still parts that are not yet available. So not parts support is till rather bad.
These parts are still unavailable to purchase directly from Arrma or Horizon only way to buy them is from a rc chop shop.
https://www.horizonhobby.com/product/front-shock-tower-cnc-7075-t6-aluminum-m---tlr/ARA320644.html
https://www.horizonhobby.com/product/rear-shock-tower-cnc-7075-t6-aluminum-m---tlr/ARA320645.html
https://www.horizonhobby.com/product/aluminum-chassis-cnc-7075-t6-swb---tlr/ARA320646.html

Oh I am sure Arrma was profitable under Hobbico, Hobbico was the problem not Arrma or any of it's other brands that it was selling. Hobbico mismanaged their finances that is what led to their demise too many of the big wigs lining their pockets.
Apparently the chassis are getting in. I have an hobbyshop i follow who are in france and they already have a lot of the 4s stuff. He recently made a video mentioning they finally have the tlr chassis a week ago
 

slick2500

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Yeah horizon warranty saves our asses a lot

The buggy isnt bad... get a racing brand like tekno,losi or tlr. The typhon tlr is just a worst tlr car from what i have heard. Its not bad again but theres superior stuff in the same department

Apparently the chassis are getting in. I have an hobbyshop i follow who are in france and they already have a lot of the 4s stuff. He recently made a video mentioning they finally have the tlr chassis a week ago
Not all Horizon products have a 2 year warranty.
Ecx for example this is all the warranty says.
"What this Warranty Covers Horizon Hobby, LLC, (Horizon) warrants to the original purchaser that the product purchased (the “Product”) will be free from defects in materials and workmanship at the date of purchase."

Doesn't change the fact that nearly 9 months after the car was released you still cannot get stock parts for it without having to go to a chop shop.
 
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My intuition - although I have no data to back it up - is that the hobby is dying a slow death. It has shrunk and consolidated over the years and forums like this are a narrow window with a view of only a very small part of it. Traxxas understands that to survive as an R/C company outside the racing scene you need to have broad appeal, flashiness and an easy on-boarding process to compete with the innumerable other activities in the modern attention economy. I think Horizon gets it too based on many of their recent decisions, and that they'll still be around after most R/C companies have gone the way of Hobbico.

Again, I don't like the state of things, and this sentiment extends far beyond R/C, but I don't think I'm making or supporting any crazy claims here, just reasonably interpreting the world as it appears.

It's hard to say what is a trend because these things take years and ebb and flow so much. RC exploded over the last two years during the pandemic, and have definitely declined the past 6 months tremendously as people have other options for recreation (and then there's inflation, economy, global supply issues) and it's going into summer which tends to be slower. There's a reason pretty much every brand including Traxxas and HH have had huge sales the past couple months to reduce inventory. I think the industry is still bigger than pre-pandemic though.

On-road bashing, drag racing, oval, crawling have all helped prop up RC the last few years, but some of these seem to be declining and I think will be considered a fad like short course was a fad. Big advances like brushless, 6S Lipos, also helped for awhile.
Oh I am sure Arrma was profitable under Hobbico, Hobbico was the problem not Arrma or any of it's other brands that it was selling. Hobbico mismanaged their finances that is what led to their demise too many of the big wigs lining their pockets.

I like Jason Dearden and appreciate everything he's done, but he's mentioned it in past interviews -- he was at HPI and it basically imploded. He was in charge of Team Durango and then it died. He started Arrma, but had to leave as owner and take foreign (Chinese?) investment to keep it going. I honestly have no idea how profitable Arrma was, and I'm sure at HH it made them a lot of money, but his track record at running companies is not all that great to be honest.
 

slick2500

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It's hard to say what is a trend because these things take years and ebb and flow so much. RC exploded over the last two years during the pandemic, and have definitely declined the past 6 months tremendously as people have other options for recreation (and then there's inflation, economy, global supply issues) and it's going into summer which tends to be slower. There's a reason pretty much every brand including Traxxas and HH have had huge sales the past couple months to reduce inventory. I think the industry is still bigger than pre-pandemic though.

On-road bashing, drag racing, oval, crawling have all helped prop up RC the last few years, but some of these seem to be declining and I think will be considered a fad like short course was a fad. Big advances like brushless, 6S Lipos, also helped for awhile.


I like Jason Dearden and appreciate everything he's done, but he's mentioned it in past interviews -- he was at HPI and it basically imploded. He was in charge of Team Durango and then it died. He started Arrma, but had to leave as owner and take foreign (Chinese?) investment to keep it going. I honestly have no idea how profitable Arrma was, and I'm sure at HH it made them a lot of money, but his track record at running companies is not all that great to be honest.
Jason was a designer for HPI he never ran the company and left them well before they went bankrupt in 2016 he left HPI in the late 2000s. Dragon Star International were the owners of Team Durango and Arrma before they were bought out by Hobbico, Hobbico wouldn't support their team drivers so they all left then Hobbico discontinued the brand as a last ditch effort to try to stay afloat when they were struggling financially in 2017. None of these things had anything to do with Jason.
 

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I watch his videos and they make me think I don't talk nearly enough in mine. :eek: :ROFLMAO:
It's not the talking it's what you're saying. Some YouTubers moan a lot. Especially small things that most take on the chin as being 'part of the hobby' I dunno just some of the bigger channels make 24 minute vids with a whole lot of complaining in them. The Fireteam was roasted big time by one 'influencer' because it had a couple of loose motor mount screws. Not great from Arrma but not worth the hand wringing it got.

Can't wait to see what they think of the 4s line.
 

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It's not the talking it's what you're saying. Some YouTubers moan a lot. Especially small things that most take on the chin as being 'part of the hobby' I dunno just some of the bigger channels make 24 minute vids with a whole lot of complaining in them. The Fireteam was roasted big time by one 'influencer' because it had a couple of loose motor mount screws. Not great from Arrma but not worth the hand wringing it got.

Can't wait to see what they think of the 4s line.
I think I know who you're talking about :ROFLMAO:
 

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I'm actually the opposite of this and despise much of the way contemporary business and the economy functions through advertising, propaganda and manufactured consent. I'm simply agreeing with his descriptive understanding of how these decisions are made, not claiming this is how it ought to be. I like kits best and wish every model was available as one, but I understand why I can't buy a Kraton kit and am quite surprised they even made a roller available.

RTRs sell best, and the quicker and more foolproof they are to get running out of the box, the more people will buy them especially as consumer products in general become more streamlined and the expectation of instant gratification grows stronger. Both Traxxas and Arrma as the largest basher brands have moved toward an integrated experience with RTRs, electronics, batteries and chargers etc. and I find it unlikely they would do this if not in response to the direction of market demand and potential for greater profits. The EXB rollers were a nod to serious enthusiasts, but the fact that they're already being phased out and migrated to RTR models suggests that serious enthusiasts are a small and not very profitable proportion of their customers. Maybe they're wrong and this is a short-sighted and stubborn decision like so many companies have made before, but the way this hobby and the world have changed in recent decades makes me seriously doubt it.

My intuition - although I have no data to back it up - is that the hobby is dying a slow death. It has shrunk and consolidated over the years and forums like this are a narrow window with a view of only a very small part of it. Traxxas understands that to survive as an R/C company outside the racing scene you need to have broad appeal, flashiness and an easy on-boarding process to compete with the innumerable other activities in the modern attention economy. I think Horizon gets it too based on many of their recent decisions, and that they'll still be around after most R/C companies have gone the way of Hobbico.

Again, I don't like the state of things, and this sentiment extends far beyond R/C, but I don't think I'm making or supporting any crazy claims here, just reasonably interpreting the world as it appears.
Well said. We enthusiasts are the minority, profits rule the industry..that's just the way she goes I guess.
 
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