Outcast Outcast Speedruns (NPB@ 67.3mph)

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Mr.Duke

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Arrma RC's
  1. Infraction
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Set the Outcast up over the weekend for speedruns (just because) and was rewarded this morning with a new personal best of 67.3mph on the stock Backflips

17 tooth pinion

Cranked the preload up on all 4 shocks while lowering the droop screws down to drop the ride height to around 40mm

ESC punch setting: 1

I'm pretty pleased with 67.3mph for now but would love to get into the 70's while still running on Backflip tires

IMG_7737.PNG
IMG_7738.PNG
IMG_7739.PNG
 
Does your receiver have any sort of gyro in or were you doing all the steering yourself? How badly were the tires ballooning?

Congrats by the way. That's hauling ass!
 
No gyro,
Stock receiver with the dual rate down around 50%

All me driving and it was sketchy every run on those tires. Lowering it and stiffening up the suspension helped out a lot, along with the alignment I worked on over the weekend.

Tires were ballooned as bad as I've ever seen them, but it went straight enough to keep it in 2 out of the 3 lanes on the stretch of road I ran on with the throttle pinned for 2 to 3 seconds on the last 2 passes
 
Set the Outcast up over the weekend for speedruns (just because) and was rewarded this morning with a new personal best of 67.3mph on the stock Backflips

17 tooth pinion

Cranked the preload up on all 4 shocks while lowering the droop screws down to drop the ride height to around 40mm

ESC punch setting: 1

I'm pretty pleased with 67.3mph for now but would love to get into the 70's while still running on Backflip tires

View attachment 22405View attachment 22406View attachment 22407
How did it not wheelie? I just can’t keep mine from wheeling at any speed. Maybe I need a longer road
 
I only popped 1 wheelie the whole run and that was intentional just before the 1st pass to give me feel for how quickly I could ramp up on the throttle

The biggest anti-wheelie settings for this thing is....

Set the punch setting on 1

crank the preload up on the springs (I'm sitting about 1/2 way down the threads on all 4 shocks)

turn the droop screws down to limit suspension travel/ride height

IMG_7745.JPG


Do that^, use a bit of throttle control, and most of your unwanted wheelie problems will go away
 
I have a notorious coming this week which will be my first Arrma. I thought ride height was not adjustable because there is only one shock hole on the a arms, but apparently a droop screw allows adjusting height? I read most of the manual and didn't see anything about that. Mind filling me in on what a droop screw is?
 
Located on each lower control arm, front and rear. It allows for adjustment of the shocks maximum extension point and ultimately, vehicle ride height

IMG_7746.JPG
IMG_7747.JPG
 
I have a notorious coming this week which will be my first Arrma. I thought ride height was not adjustable because there is only one shock hole on the a arms, but apparently a droop screw allows adjusting height? I read most of the manual and didn't see anything about that. Mind filling me in on what a droop screw is?

It has 3 holes in the towers though as well. If you get RPM arms, they have two holes on the arms vs 1.

However, these holes/adjustments are more for how the shocks work on the truck than adjusting ride height. Top further from center makes them "stiffer" as does moving them out on the bottom if you have more holes. Gives the arms less leverage as you move the shocks out. Moving the lowers to the inside hole on the RPM arms does raise ride height, but also makes the suspension softer.
 
No gyro,
Stock receiver with the dual rate down around 50%

All me driving and it was sketchy every run on those tires. Lowering it and stiffening up the suspension helped out a lot, along with the alignment I worked on over the weekend.

Tires were ballooned as bad as I've ever seen them, but it went straight enough to keep it in 2 out of the 3 lanes on the stretch of road I ran on with the throttle pinned for 2 to 3 seconds on the last 2 passes

"2 out of 3 lanes"
Bet you're still prying yer britches out. ?
 
Pulled this pic from one of the security cams at work

IMG_7750.jpg


Made a couple more small changes and ordered a18 tooth just to see if I can crack 70

I'll get someone to shoot video next time out
 
Does it really take 10 seconds to get to full speed? That seems like an awful long time.

only because I would roll on the throttle a little bit at a time pausing to make steering corrections when it would start getting out the of line, then feeding it more until I was WOT
Notice the turnaround pass coming back where it went from 0.8mph to 50.4mph in 1.99 seconds, then on to 66.8 in another 3
 
I have a notorious coming this week which will be my first Arrma. I thought ride height was not adjustable because there is only one shock hole on the a arms, but apparently a droop screw allows adjusting height? I read most of the manual and didn't see anything about that. Mind filling me in on what a droop screw is?

A droop screw is there to adjust the amount of down travel (droop) that your suspension has. If for example, at normal ride height there is 50mm between the chassis and the ground. And you can pick the chassis up until the tires just start to lift off the ground and that measurement is now 60mm, then you have 10mm of droop. It is necessary so the tires can stay in contact with the surface and maintain controlled drive, chassis attitude and steering. Typically for bigger jumps and or rougher surfaces you want more, (but not so much as to let the shocks over extend, that rips out shock eyes and Pistons) smaller and smoother higher traction surfaces require less. Some measure this at the shocks (from eye to eye) but that method does not equate to the actual result. The angles of the shocks, mounting positions and length of the a arms skew that number. So 5 mm at the shock might really be 9mm at the wheel in the rear and some other number at the front. Measuring chassis height is absolute.
What Mr. Duke is doing in that situation is turning the preload collar down which is not changing the rate of the spring but is raising the initial spring force. By doing that without using the droop screw to limit down travel he would have too high a ride height which raises the CG & that decreases stability in every way, more prone to wheelie, traction roll and front flip under braking. By using the droop screw to lower the ride height he has lowered the CG, effectively increased the spring preload even more (so now there is even more initial spring force) and now since there is no droop (down travel) the car is harder to lift from any angle, front, rear, side. Because the springs are no longer able to help get it started going up, it has to pick strictly weight in order to rise. So on that smooth surface he has greater stability. Any where else, droop is your friend.
 
A droop screw is there to adjust the amount of down travel (droop) that your suspension has. If for example, at normal ride height there is 50mm between the chassis and the ground. And you can pick the chassis up until the tires just start to lift off the ground and that measurement is now 60mm, then you have 10mm of droop. It is necessary so the tires can stay in contact with the surface and maintain controlled drive, chassis attitude and steering. Typically for bigger jumps and or rougher surfaces you want more, (but not so much as to let the shocks over extend, that rips out shock eyes and Pistons) smaller and smoother higher traction surfaces require less. Some measure this at the shocks (from eye to eye) but that method does not equate to the actual result. The angles of the shocks, mounting positions and length of the a arms skew that number. So 5 mm at the shock might really be 9mm at the wheel in the rear and some other number at the front. Measuring chassis height is absolute.
What Mr. Duke is doing in that situation is turning the preload collar down which is not changing the rate of the spring but is raising the initial spring force. By doing that without using the droop screw to limit down travel he would have too high a ride height which raises the CG & that decreases stability in every way, more prone to wheelie, traction roll and front flip under braking. By using the droop screw to lower the ride height he has lowered the CG, effectively increased the spring preload even more (so now there is even more initial spring force) and now since there is no droop (down travel) the car is harder to lift from any angle, front, rear, side. Because the springs are no longer able to help get it started going up, it has to pick strictly weight in order to rise. So on that smooth surface he has greater stability. Any where else, droop is your friend.

For context, my RC experience is: I have a massively customized Slash 4x4 and Stampede 4x4 and I understand very well how they work (they are basically the same car). My first Arrma and first 1/8th scale car is a Notorious and its arriving today. Also, everywhere that I write "Notorious" below, I also mean Outcast or any other 1/8th Arrma that is similar.

Thanks for the detail. I have a lot of experience messing with ride height, springs, and shock oil on my LCG Slash 4x4 (which is massively customized, pictures below). The ride height of the Slash 4x4 is determined by changing the mounting positions of the shocks on the shock towers and the a-arms (the a-arm holes have the largest impact). The Notorious arms have a single mounting position, which was likely done for durability (the single hole has a lot of reinforcement around it, which would not be possible with 5 holes like the Slash arms). On my Slash I never had to worry about the shocks over extending.... the shocks were the only thing that limited how far down the a-arms dropped when the car was in the air. I could limit "droop" by adjusting the shock mounting position or putting travel limiters in the shocks (on the inside, to limit maximum travel extension). I'm a little confused about why the shocks could over-extend on the Notorious as they appear to be built in a way that is nearly identical internally to the GTR shocks on my Slash. On the Slash the a-arms will "droop" or travel downward an unlimited amount until they are stopped by the shocks as there is no other droop limiting mechanism and I have never heard of anyone having their shocks damaged by this. Perhaps its because the Notorious has a lot more weight pulling down on the shocks due to much larger and heavier tires, so this could damage the shocks if they have to hold all the extra weight?


I also noticed that the RPM Notorious a-arms have two mounting holes (compared to the 1 on the stock a-arms).
rpm kraton arm.jpg



I have a few questions that I'm hoping someone can help me get answers for:

  1. If I adjust the droop screws on the Notorious so that the only thing limiting downward a-arm travel is the shocks it could over extend the shocks and break them (according to what others posted above). Why is this the case? As I mentioned above the Slash 4x4 has no droop limiting mechanism other than the shocks and I don't have to worry about damaging my shocks by over extending them. Is it the extra weight of the 1/8th scale tires? Do other non-Arrma 8th scale cars have a similar droop limiting mechanism to prevent over extending the shocks?
  2. The RPM Notorious a-arms have two shock mounting positions compared to 1 on the stock arms. Are there any threads about the pros and cons of using the extra hole on the RPM arms? How do people feel about the RPM arms compared to the stock ones (are they a lot better)? I know with the Slash 4x4 the stock a-arms are garbage and most people get the RPM arms, but they can create issues such as not being able to use them with the Tekno M6 dog bone drive shafts for the Slash 4x4 because they flex so much that it can break the drive shafts (Tekno explicitly states that you should not use their shafts with the RPM arms). The stock Notorious drive shafts are very similar to the Slash 4x4 Tekno M6 drive shafts; so I would think similar drive shaft breakage issues could occur if using the RPM arms on the Notorious?
  3. Does the Notorious have problems with the drive shafts popping out if you increase the ride height or maximum droop (via droop screws, shock tower mounting holes, or RPM a-arm shock mounting holes)? My friend's E-revo 2.0 has massive issues with the drive shafts popping out if he makes any suspension adjustments and it uses similar dog bone drive shafts. My Slash 4x4 does not have this issue because it uses telescoping MIP X-Duty drive shafts and I can easily see that the shafts extend outward a large amount when I increase the ride height.



For quick reference I posted a picture of the RPM Slash 4x4 a-arms below, notice the 5 different shock mounting holes (the inner most hole is for sway bars) I'm sure most of you guys have seen this as its common many cars.

rpm slash 4x4 a-arm single.png




My LCG Slash 4x4 as a Jeep:
20180918_102957.jpg


My LCG Slash 4x4 with a highly customized BAJR body (and a Outcast wheelie bar):
my slash bajr.JPG



My Notorious is arriving today! But its coming this afternoon and I'm leaving this morning for the beach until Sunday so I won't actually get to use it until next Monday :cry:. I'm about to start soldering XT-90 connectors onto my charger and batteries so that I'm ready to drive as soon as I get home from vacation!
 

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Hmm.... how to words this delicately.......

comparing Arrma to Traxxas is like comparing a porterhouse steak to a can of potted meat....yeah they're both edible but that's about as far as it goes.
Throw that potted meat in the garbage where it belongs. You'll understand where I'm coming from once you get a few runs on the Notorious
 
For context, my RC experience is: I have a massively customized Slash 4x4 and Stampede 4x4 and I understand very well how they work (they are basically the same car). My first Arrma and first 1/8th scale car is a Notorious and its arriving today. Also, everywhere that I write "Notorious" below, I also mean Outcast or any other 1/8th Arrma that is similar.

Thanks for the detail. I have a lot of experience messing with ride height, springs, and shock oil on my LCG Slash 4x4 (which is massively customized, pictures below). The ride height of the Slash 4x4 is determined by changing the mounting positions of the shocks on the shock towers and the a-arms (the a-arm holes have the largest impact). The Notorious arms have a single mounting position, which was likely done for durability (the single hole has a lot of reinforcement around it, which would not be possible with 5 holes like the Slash arms). On my Slash I never had to worry about the shocks over extending.... the shocks were the only thing that limited how far down the a-arms dropped when the car was in the air. I could limit "droop" by adjusting the shock mounting position or putting travel limiters in the shocks (on the inside, to limit maximum travel extension). I'm a little confused about why the shocks could over-extend on the Notorious as they appear to be built in a way that is nearly identical internally to the GTR shocks on my Slash. On the Slash the a-arms will "droop" or travel downward an unlimited amount until they are stopped by the shocks as there is no other droop limiting mechanism and I have never heard of anyone having their shocks damaged by this. Perhaps its because the Notorious has a lot more weight pulling down on the shocks due to much larger and heavier tires, so this could damage the shocks if they have to hold all the extra weight?


I also noticed that the RPM Notorious a-arms have two mounting holes (compared to the 1 on the stock a-arms).
View attachment 22462


I have a few questions that I'm hoping someone can help me get answers for:

  1. If I adjust the droop screws on the Notorious so that the only thing limiting downward a-arm travel is the shocks it could over extend the shocks and break them (according to what others posted above). Why is this the case? As I mentioned above the Slash 4x4 has no droop limiting mechanism other than the shocks and I don't have to worry about damaging my shocks by over extending them. Is it the extra weight of the 1/8th scale tires? Do other non-Arrma 8th scale cars have a similar droop limiting mechanism to prevent over extending the shocks?
  2. The RPM Notorious a-arms have two shock mounting positions compared to 1 on the stock arms. Are there any threads about the pros and cons of using the extra hole on the RPM arms? How do people feel about the RPM arms compared to the stock ones (are they a lot better)? I know with the Slash 4x4 the stock a-arms are garbage and most people get the RPM arms, but they can create issues such as not being able to use them with the Tekno M6 dog bone drive shafts for the Slash 4x4 because they flex so much that it can break the drive shafts (Tekno explicitly states that you should not use their shafts with the RPM arms). The stock Notorious drive shafts are very similar to the Slash 4x4 Tekno M6 drive shafts; so I would think similar drive shaft breakage issues could occur if using the RPM arms on the Notorious?
  3. Does the Notorious have problems with the drive shafts popping out if you increase the ride height or maximum droop (via droop screws, shock tower mounting holes, or RPM a-arm shock mounting holes)? My friend's E-revo 2.0 has massive issues with the drive shafts popping out if he makes any suspension adjustments and it uses similar dog bone drive shafts. My Slash 4x4 does not have this issue because it uses telescoping MIP X-Duty drive shafts and I can easily see that the shafts extend outward a large amount when I increase the ride height.



For quick reference I posted a picture of the RPM Slash 4x4 a-arms below, notice the 5 different shock mounting holes (the inner most hole is for sway bars) I'm sure most of you guys have seen this as its common many cars.

View attachment 22463



My LCG Slash 4x4 as a Jeep:
View attachment 22459

My LCG Slash 4x4 with a highly customized BAJR body (and a Outcast wheelie bar):View attachment 22460


My Notorious is arriving today! But its coming this afternoon and I'm leaving this morning for the beach until Sunday so I won't actually get to use it until next Monday :cry:. I'm about to start soldering XT-90 connectors onto my charger and batteries so that I'm ready to drive as soon as I get home from vacation!

I feel a little, shall we say (disbelief) about my reply to your OP. It would seem that someone with your "extensive experience" with RC would not have asked "what is a droop screw" I attempted to respond with a fairly complete answer. So as to possibly answer any other questions related to them. Along with why Mr. Duke used them in the way he did under the circumstance. Bolting on a few pretty aftermarket parts, changing tires/wheels & a different body does not make for "massively customized" either. Refer to some of Thomas P's or Joostin420's builds, along with some others on here for that.
Possibly a 12 year old on a Traxxas forum could help.
I will apologize now.
SORRY !
 
I said I have a lot of experience with the slash 4x4, that's about it. Almost every single part on my slash that can be upgraded is upgraded including a castle MMX add 2650 kv motor. I don't know much about Arrma or 8th scale rc in general which is why I was asking some questions.

I was only comparing my understanding of how traxxas cars work to try and understand how my notorious will work
 
I said I have a lot of experience with the slash 4x4, that's about it. Almost every single part on my slash that can be upgraded is upgraded including a castle MMX add 2650 kv motor. I don't know much about Arrma or 8th scale rc in general which is why I was asking some questions.

I was only comparing my understanding of how traxxas cars work to try and understand how my notorious will work

I have a feeling it's due to the weight of the truck and how it's designed. I doubt this issue is limited to arrma vehicles, but all heavier MT's that see a lot of air that run long arms/large tires. Between the extra leverage of the long arms and the weight of the large tires combined with the weight of the truck itself, when you tumble/crash/roll, at some point, the top side of the wheel may hit the ground which effectively yanks the arm downward further than it should. The only thing keeping it from overextending is the shock. Do this a few times with a 15lb truck, it takes a toll on the shocks, shock ends and shock caps.

I have this issue quite frequently on my revo's as well. Not with just the shock ends, but the pushrod ends as well, since it has cantilever suspension, there are more points of failure.

I don't have this issue nearly as much on my savageX or savageFlux running similar tires, but I believe that is due to the arms only extend as far as the shocks do by design of the way the arms connect. Even without a shock connected, the arms don't go down hardly any further than the shocks would allow.

On my outcast and revo, if I disconnect the shocks (and remove the droop screws on the outcast), the arms will drop lower than the shocks are long, which means, all that strain is being held together by the shocks on those vehicles.

I don't know why, but it's very rare I had this issue on my nitro revo's, could be the tires weigh less, or they are less grabby, or the truck is lighter without the big brushless motor and 2 9000mah 2S lipo's strapped to them. I never really have this issue on my stampede 4x4 or eJato either. Both of those are far lighter than any of my MT's and the arms are short as well as the wheels/tires being very light comparatively as well, so less leverage and weight. I've gone so far on my brushless revo to actually create down travel limiters tied to the arm out where the pushrod connects. I can only do this on the rear, but that seems to be where I have the most issue for some reason with the ends getting ripped apart.

IMHO, I don't know that the droop screws do a ton. I'm sure they help, but with where they are located, if you set your droop, disconnect your shock, then forcibly push down on the arm, the arms flex quite a bit beyond where the droop screw is stopping it. I guess the droop would help when launching off a jump and the shock springs push the arms down to full extension as the shock spring has enough pressure to push pretty hard, but not so much that it could overcome the force it takes to flex the arm itself beyond where the droop screw is set. So, it would help that constant and frequent impact from being absorbed by the shock.
 
Be careful with the backflips and speed Runs. I blew one at 65 mph and luckily it went into the tall grass and misses a mailbox post!!

If you keep doing speed runs, do yourself a favor and get some belted tires like the SRC Roadcrushers. Zero balloon and I have hit 73 mph in my Talion and it is on rails. So easy to control it is crazy the difference.

You will need a 23t pinion to hit 70 with these tires as they don't balloon and thus lose the gearing that comes from ballooned tires. I had to modify my motor mount ever so slightly to fit a 24t pinion and hit 73 mph.
 
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