Talion Situation after use with 5 batteries Spektrum Lipo 6S g2 5000mah 100C

Ivan79

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Dear all,

I want to share with you my analysis on the file pdf attached below about our bad experience, my son use is new Arrma Talion 6s EXB after only 5 batteries Spektrum Lipo 6S 5000 mah 100C he have the traction only on the front wheels, no traction on the rear wheels, I have dissasembled all and checked the situation.

My son are not expert so he don't make jump, he make some drift and strong acceleration and strong brake, perhaps this use is not appropriate ?

I want upgrade all the three differential with alluminium case ARA220050 and new conicals and satellites.

I want also use a better silicone oil for the differential, one rc store in Italy have suggest me to use for uses on 6S the following grade of oil:

_ Front and rear differential 1'000'000
_ Center differential 2'000'000

I have read a lot of thread on this forum about the grade of differential oil but no body spoke about a so high grade, can you suggeste me what kind of grade can I use ?

Thank you.

Ivan
 

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I might be wrong, but I would guess English isn't your first language (isn't mine either). I don't exactly understand the problem. Are you saying that the diff gears got damaged? Or the driveshaft cup came loose? I mainly use my talion for high acceleration and drifting, it puts wear on the gears, but shouldn't make the rear diff completely stop working. The only way I can think of for the diff gears to break so soon would be if your son lands any jumps with throttle on.
 

Ivan79

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I might be wrong, but I would guess English isn't your first language (isn't mine either). I don't exactly understand the problem. Are you saying that the diff gears got damaged? Or the driveshaft cup came loose? I mainly use my talion for high acceleration and drifting, it puts wear on the gears, but shouldn't make the rear diff completely stop working. The only way I can think of for the diff gears to break so soon would be if your son lands any jumps with throttle on.
Hi #ARRMArcfanboy4life,

I am Italian, sorry for my english, he don't make jump with throttle on, I am saying that the diff gears got damaged. I think this is absurd only for a so little use, only 5 batteries.

You have a proposal for the grade of differential oil ? At your opinion 2'000'000 cps for central diff. and 1'000'000 for rear and front diff. it is right ?

I have read on some post (on this forum) that with the system LSD on the differential the grade must be different for a correct work compare to a differential without LSD.
 

JustAnOutcast

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Dear all,

I want to share with you my analysis on the file pdf attached below about our bad experience, my son use is new Arrma Talion 6s EXB after only 5 batteries Spektrum Lipo 6S 5000 mah 100C he have the traction only on the front wheels, no traction on the rear wheels, I have dissasembled all and checked the situation.

My son are not expert so he don't make jump, he make some drift and strong acceleration and strong brake, perhaps this use is not appropriate ?

I want upgrade all the three differential with alluminium case ARA220050 and new conicals and satellites.

I want also use a better silicone oil for the differential, one rc store in Italy have suggest me to use for uses on 6S the following grade of oil:

_ Front and rear differential 1'000'000
_ Center differential 2'000'000

I have read a lot of thread on this forum about the grade of differential oil but no body spoke about a so high grade, can you suggeste me what kind of grade can I use ?

Thank you.

Ivan
Very thorough and complete analysis sir. Excellent work!
I am beginner so my thoughts may not be correct, but it seems that gears inside differential are not meshed properly and are slipping, which can be caused by different reasons. Also, I think oil recommendations are too high. But I am beginner and experts here will give their thoughts. Good luck!
 

Ivan79

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Very thorough and complete analysis sir. Excellent work!
I am beginner so my thoughts may not be correct, but it seems that gears inside differential are not meshed properly and are slipping, which can be caused by different reasons. Also, I think oil recommendations are too high. But I am beginner and experts here will give their thoughts. Good luck!
Hi JustAnOutcast,

thank you for your reply.
 
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If you are talking about the internal gears, the internal gears probably slipped like @JustAnOutcast said. If the outer gears are having problems, maybe put some shims on one side of the diff. As for diff fluid, I would put in at least 100k diff fluid in the F/R and lock the center diff with 1,000,000 or a silicon earplug. I recommend an earplug because it is easier to clean up, and cheaper (for the U.S at least).
 

Ivan79

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If you are talking about the internal gears, the internal gears probably slipped like @JustAnOutcast said. If the outer gears are having problems, maybe put some shims on one side of the diff. As for diff fluid, I would put in at least 100k diff fluid in the F/R and lock the center diff with 1,000,000 or a silicon earplug. I recommend an earplug because it is easier to clean up, and cheaper (for the U.S at least).
No problem at outer gear, the problem is only on the internal gear. Your differential have also the LSD system ? If yes that mean we can use 1'000'000 with LSD.

Why you consider 10:1 rapport from the center diff. to the rear/front ? it is because originaly we have 100K on the center and 10K on the rear/front ?
 
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GraniteFox

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Looks to me like the diff had some bad mesh straight out of the factory.....or not filled with oil. Unfortunately this does happen. I would try and warranty the rear diff using the pictures provided. As far as oil weights I do not go over 500,000 in my center diff with the lsd system. Front around 50k and rear around 30k. You could certainly go a little higher f&r depending on how you like to drive it. I also prefer the aluminum diff case for the center.
 

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I’ve had no problem running stock diff weights, especially with LSD diffs. I usually run a few packs through a new truck to let the gears run in and then rebuild the diffs with heavier weight silicone fluid. You will get many different opinions, but with my LSD rigs I typically run 50K in front, 500K or higher in the center, and 30K in the rear.
Most agree that LSD diffs do not need the million+ weight fluids unless you wish to essentially lock the diffs with a small margin of shock relief.
As said above, proper shimming is crucial. If I had to guess I’d say your internal diff gears are probably ok and the ring/pinion gears are what sustained the damage, probably due to bad factory shimming.
And hey, welcome to the forum, man!
 

Ivan79

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Looks to me like the diff had some bad mesh straight out of the factory.....or not filled with oil. Unfortunately this does happen. I would try and warranty the rear diff using the pictures provided. As far as oil weights I do not go over 500,000 in my center diff with the lsd system. Front around 50k and rear around 30k. You could certainly go a little higher f&r depending on how you like to drive it. I also prefer the aluminum diff case for the center.
Hi GraniteFox,

thank you for your reply, I have also tried to explain the situation at the shop where I have buy but no way for the warranty, I have the same opinion to you, something are wrong from the factory.
I’ve had no problem running stock diff weights, especially with LSD diffs. I usually run a few packs through a new truck to let the gears run in and then rebuild the diffs with heavier weight silicone fluid. You will get many different opinions, but with my LSD rigs I typically run 50K in front, 500K or higher in the center, and 30K in the rear.
Most agree that LSD diffs do not need the million+ weight fluids unless you wish to essentially lock the diffs with a small margin of shock relief.
As said above, proper shimming is crucial. If I had to guess I’d say your internal diff gears are probably ok and the ring/pinion gears are what sustained the damage, probably due to bad factory shimming.
And hey, welcome to the forum, man!
Hi Dan B.,

thank you for your reply, I will take care to your suggested about the grade of the oil in differential, in general my trend is to prefer the more high grade possible (compatible with LSD system) to prevent the wear of the internal gear.
 
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JustAnOutcast

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Hi JustAnOutcast,

thank you for your reply.
I think the problem has to be the internal gears became loose and from the factory.

Not sure how it works in Italy, but in US one can contact Horizon Hobby product support directly by going to Arrma website and starting a chat. They have been very helpful with two problems with Outcast 6s EXB. You will need photocopy of receipt.

Did you notice if differential screws were loose when taking apart? Or did all screws seem tight?
 

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@Ivan79 ,
The rear diff is bricked. Yeah time to rebuild it. If you never checked all the diffs when new, they were probably very low on oil or assembled incorrectly and/or just not shimmed properly. The factory doesn't assemble them well enough IMHO. All the Arrma 6s rigs I've had the same. I always rebuild a new out the box rig now. I have much better luck in the long term.
LSD ( Limited Slip Differentials) EXB diffs are usually fine with stock oils.
Only "OPEN" standard diffs will run best with thicker diff oils. And the recommended weight you listed above are too thick. Especially for LSD EXB diffs.
Need to absolutely look over the other 2 diffs also. Arrma 6s diffs in general need attention frequently. Get used to wrenching them.

Follow this procedure by Arrma. Also have the Talion EXB manual in hand for reference.

No problem at outer gear, the problem is only on the internal gear. Your differential have also the LSD system ? If yes that mean we can use 1'000'000 with LSD.

Why you consider 10:1 rapport from the center diff. to the rear/front ? it is because originaly we have 100K on the center and 10K on the rear/front ?
I find that with OPEN diffs, 60k front and 30k cst rear is best. 2:1 ratio. Best for traction handling and Steering.The center could be 200k at a minimum. I like 500k at the middle diff. The ratio of front to rear is most critical. The center is by itself in the equation.
WIth LSD diffs, the Diff ACTION is dialed in with the Staging of the LSD plates. Two ways to set them up. It is not so much the oil that dials in LSD diffs. Whereas with "Fully Open diffs", the oil thickness is what dials in the the diff ACTION. Many use the Optional Arrma "Open Shim kit"to make one or all of these LSD diffs fully open. The best diff to make open would be the Rear one if anything. While using 30k Cst in it when it's made Fully Open.
Hope this helps.:cool:
 
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Dan B.

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What type of driving do you guys do with these oil weights?
General bashing on a variety of surfaces. Mostly grassy fields though, with some runs on a pretty soft dirt track I built in my woods. That combo does understeer quite a bit on loose surfaces, though.
 

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^^^
Many guys with LSD experience the same. Why many opt to "Open" the GP4 29mm rear diff. Less push (understeer) results with a looser rear open diff action.
Driving style is different between a standard 6s diff and an EXB LSD setup rig.
 

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What exactly do you mean by 'better' silicone oil? Do you want it to last longer, or do you want to change the way the car drives? Using a different grade of oil will make the car behave differently when accelerating, braking and steering. You should verify that this is what you want before you change from the stock grade.
 

Ivan79

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I think the problem has to be the internal gears became loose and from the factory.

Not sure how it works in Italy, but in US one can contact Horizon Hobby product support directly by going to Arrma website and starting a chat. They have been very helpful with two problems with Outcast 6s EXB. You will need photocopy of receipt.

Did you notice if differential screws were loose when taking apart? Or did all screws seem tight?
Hi JustAnOutcast,
I think the problem has to be the internal gears became loose and from the factory.

Not sure how it works in Italy, but in US one can contact Horizon Hobby product support directly by going to Arrma website and starting a chat. They have been very helpful with two problems with Outcast 6s EXB. You will need photocopy of receipt.

Did you notice if differential screws were loose when taking apart? Or did all screws seem tight?

I will try with the chat Horizon Hobby.

No screws loose, but the screws are not perfectly tight. Also on the center differential I remember that one screw had a little bit oil outside.
@Ivan79 ,
The rear diff is bricked. Yeah time to rebuild it. If you never checked all the diffs when new, they were probably very low on oil or assembled incorrectly and/or just not shimmed properly. The factory doesn't assemble them well enough IMHO. All the Arrma 6s rigs I've had the same. I always rebuild a new out the box rig now. I have much better luck in the long term.
LSD ( Limited Slip Differentials) EXB diffs are usually fine with stock oils.
Only "OPEN" standard diffs will run best with thicker diff oils. And the recommended weight you listed above are too thick. Especially for LSD EXB diffs.
Need to absolutely look over the other 2 diffs also. Arrma 6s diffs in general need attention frequently. Get used to wrenching them.

Follow this procedure by Arrma. Also have the Talion EXB manual in hand for reference.


I find that with OPEN diffs, 60k front and 30k cst rear is best. 2:1 ratio. Best for traction handling and Steering.The center could be 200k at a minimum. I like 500k at the middle diff. The ratio of front to rear is most critical. The center is by itself in the equation.
WIth LSD diffs, the Diff ACTION is dialed in with the Staging of the LSD plates. Two ways to set them up. It is not so much the oil that dials in LSD diffs. Whereas with "Fully Open diffs", the oil thickness is what dials in the the diff ACTION. Many use the Optional Arrma "Open Shim kit"to make one or all of these LSD diffs fully open. The best diff to make open would be the Rear one if anything. While using 30k Cst in it when it's made Fully Open.
Hope this helps.:cool:
Hi SrC,

Wow what kind of wonderful and detail answer you give me, thank you so much for your time.

So if I good understand the best setting at your experience for the diff, is the following:

_ Front diff: shim of LSD setting on maximum effect and 60k silicone oil

_ Center diff: shim of LSD setting on maximum effect and 500k silicone oil

_ Rear diff: shim of LSD setting on minimum effect and 30k silicone oil

My son like make drift and wheelies, it is this setting appropriate or must I make same different setting for help him to have the better result on this way ?
 

Ivan79

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What exactly do you mean by 'better' silicone oil? Do you want it to last longer, or do you want to change the way the car drives? Using a different grade of oil will make the car behave differently when accelerating, braking and steering. You should verify that this is what you want before you change from the stock grade.
Hi Sinchronicity,

I mean both, I hope longher life to the diff and I whant more punch on the rear side, because my son like drift and wheelies.
 

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Hi SrC,

Wow what kind of wonderful and detail answer you give me, thank you so much for your time.

So if I good understand the best setting at your experience for the diff, is the following:

_ Front diff: shim of LSD setting on maximum effect and 60k silicone oil

_ Center diff: shim of LSD setting on maximum effect and 500k silicone oil

_ Rear diff: shim of LSD setting on minimum effect and 30k silicone oil

My son like make drift and wheelies, it is this setting appropriate or must I make same different setting for help him to have the better result on this way ?
That's a good place to start. It should feel much better when all is rebuilt. Diffs can be rather technical. A learning curve. Once you have done them 60+ times, it is like second nature and they will usually last longer. Some get as much as 30 packs in before a diff fails. Some less.
Manual I think states 15 packs before they need to be opened checked. Depends how you drive. Never hard throttle or brake the moment you land (jumps) or have impacts. This will spare the whole drivetrain.
Just drive it and have fun.
 
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Ivan79

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Questo è un buon punto di partenza. Dovrebbe sentirsi molto meglio quando tutto sarà ricostruito. Le differenze possono essere piuttosto tecniche. Una curva di apprendimento. Una volta che li hai fatti più di 60 volte, è come una seconda natura e di solito dureranno più a lungo. Alcuni ottengono fino a 30 pacchetti prima che una differenza fallisca. Alcuni meno.
Il manuale penso che indichi 15 confezioni prima che debbano essere aperte controllate. Dipende da come guidi. Non accelerare o frenare mai bruscamente nel momento in cui atterri (salti) o subisci impatti. Ciò risparmierà l'intera trasmissione.
Guidala e divertiti.
Thank you very much
 
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