Talion Talion EXB Ultra Track Basher

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Tekno TKR4175 "M5" Hardened Steel Mod1 Pinion 15T Upgrade

Review:
This one is easy. Do it. It's stronger and lighter, it's a top tier upgrade for everyone.

Fitment: Perfect. Grub screw is 2.5mm instead of the stock 2mm and it feels way stronger too. One of the few screws I didn't 'upgrade' to stainless because I trust the Tekno grub screw to be superior to the RC Screwz.

Top tier upgrade - highest recommendation possible

Part Weights:
EXB
15T Pinion: 14.7 gr
Tekno
15T Pinion: 8.9 gr

Weight savings: 5.8 gr

EXB Pinion 15T:
IMG_20211129_000107.jpg




Tekno TKR4175 "M5" Hardened Steel Mod1 Pinion 15T
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You have been very through with this build thread. Approximately how much did this all cost?
It's in the "If you have to ask you can't afford it" region. I told the wife I would sell one of my other toys.

I have also already bought the whole family A959s for Christmas off Banggood to smooth things over :)
 
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Car setup Nov 30/2021

Comments:
Testing out the diff oils. Really like this setup. The car is very controllable, stable, shockingly fast off road. Runs better off road than on. The oversteer is improving. Need better weather to try the track again.

Damage: No damages, no breakages. Motor threw an e-clip (third time). Tires seem to need little bits of glue after every run now. Switched to a thick CA which has been really nice actually - bit more messy.

Conditions: Neighborhood test run

Vehicle Setup:
Wheels:
Badlands 1/2" offset
Curb Weight: 13.4 lbs
Battery: 2x 3s Hardcase (760gr)
Front Diff: 10k, LSD max
Center Diff: 50k LSD min
Rear Diff: 3.5k LSD min
Front shocks: stock height, 1,000cst, M2C ZRS bladderless, more laid down
Rear shocks: stock height, 1,000cst, M2C ZRS bladderless, ,more upright position
Upper A-arms: 1mm clip forward
Acumen Arm: forward position
Front camber zero, caster stock, toe zero
Rear camber/caster/toe stock
 
Car setup Dec 2/2021

Comments:
Same setup from yesterday, but now with 6S Backflips and ZOP batteries. These tires ruined the handling, the car plows everywhere, flips over things. Lots of fun though. Totally different car. Ground clearance is excellent! Drive over just about anything. Motor ran a lot hotter and hit probably 160f. Will keep these for bashing only. They are quite tough and decent grip. The car would not steer on or off power, as if the 32kg servo was underpowered (it might be). If it's moving fast you just guide the missile. Car was sliding in every direction because it was so heavy. Suspension is sagging a bit so I can probably tighten the shocks for a bit better handling. These tires (and batteries) turned this thing from a something close to a racer to a straight up basher by adding 1.2lbs of mostly unsprung rotating weight. Difficult to control, but it was amazing fun but I'm not going to tune the suspension for these heavy weights. I can see why you would want to wear these jumping.

Damage: Front left M2C cvd popped out hitting a curb during a power slide. Looks like it will pop right back in. These wheels are VERY heavy.

Conditions: Neighborhood test run. Sunny dry cold.

Vehicle Setup:
Wheels:
6s Backflip ARAC8795
Curb Weight: 14.6lbs (Too heavy!)
Battery: 2x 3s ZOP 5000mah 60c (840gr)
Front Diff: 10k, LSD max
Center Diff: 50k LSD min
Rear Diff: 3.5k LSD min
Front shocks: stock height, 1,000cst, M2C ZRS bladderless, more laid down
Rear shocks: stock height, 1,000cst, M2C ZRS bladderless, ,more upright position
Upper A-arms: 1mm clip forward
Acumen Arm: forward position
Front camber zero, caster stock, toe zero
Rear camber/caster/toe stock




IMG_20211202_131443__01.jpg
IMG_20211202_131503.jpg
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Car setup Dec 3/2021

Comments:
So I felt terrible yesterday after my short run because the car performed so poorly. But today I went again with much improvement! I really do like these tires, you won't be winning any races, but it adds completely different feel to the car. You can jump really comfortably. The biggest surprise was dropping a battery. For some reason I stuck only a single 3S battery in there - with the super low CG and dropping a whole pound. I took it for a spin and WOW, the car was alive again. It handled so much better, was so much more controllable and it didn't feel slow at all. The motor was running pretty hot too. Hotter on 3S than 6S? Does that make sense? Maybe I was just able to be on the throttle more.

Damage: One of the darn m2c CVD's keep popping out of the diff in the front left. It's really starting to chew the diff cup. Oddly, it fell out twice while I wasn't jumping - the jumping parts all went flawless. I had to remove the clips from the front upper arms which then applies maximum camber to the front wheels (maybe 3 degrees or so). At least the car doesn't drive too bad like this, but it's disappointing that I can't pick my adjustments and stick to them like you can with proper cars. I think I'm going to remove the red EXB spacer thing on the bottom front a-arms to get closer to zero camber again.

Conditions: Neighborhood test run. Sunny dry cold.

Vehicle Setup:
Wheels:
6s Backflip ARAC8795
Curb Weight: 13.7lbs
Battery: 1x 3s ZOP 5000mah 60c (420gr)
Front Diff: 10k, LSD max
Center Diff: 50k LSD min
Rear Diff: 3.5k LSD min
Front shocks: stock height, 1,000cst, M2C ZRS bladderless, more laid down
Rear shocks: stock height, 1,000cst, M2C ZRS bladderless, ,more upright position
Upper A-arms: 1mm clip forward
Acumen Arm: forward position
Front camber NO SPACERS (about 3 degrees?), caster stock, toe zero
Rear camber/caster/toe stock
 
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Cracks in the EXB Upper A-Arms.

Seems I cracked both A-Arms (left and right), separately, one last week and one today, different sides, but on the EXACT same spot.

Wish I had an RPM option.


broke upper arms.jpg
 
Thanks Jordan - that brings me to M2C 3125 front hinge pin support system


Review:
Love the piece, but hate you cannot remove the diff cover and there is no good solution for rear screws. (CORRECTION! I think we have found the solution to the rear screws, waiting on the parts now). Definitely a significant strength upgrade at little to no weight increase - especially if you can't get all the screws back in!

Fitment: This is where I started having some trouble. I'm surprised I can't find more pictures on this one, I must have been frustrated. There was a weight savings, and a strength increase. However, you lose a bit of convenience as you can no longer remove your diff cover without first removing the front blocks AKA first you must remove the entire front end to get the diff cover off. Also, one of the plastic pieces needed significant modification to fit, its a shell of its former self... oh well, the 5mm of 7075 T6 will have to make up for the loss of much of the plastic bumper block. Lastly, the rear screws that hold the bumper cover to the chassis...don't fit well. The rear hinge pins interfere with the use of a nut on the chassis side, there is no longer plastic to screw it with the original pieces removed. I tried to use a long screw and a lock nut, but it was too micky mouse for this build. I have resorted to zap-strapping it, which break every run. Not please about this, almost willing to chuck the upgrade away. However, the added strength is significant, I really want to use these parts, and I can live with the diff cover hassle. But I need to solve the rear fastener issue.

Caution Recommended- Possible solution found!
m2c 3510 ARRMA 6S CAPTURED 1 PIECE HINGE PINS
Thanks Jordan10R

Parts have been ordered!

Part you will need to modify:
View attachment 182029

Fitment Detail:
View attachment 182026View attachment 182025View attachment 182027View attachment 182028
I tapped out the 2 holes in the chassis to 4mm (didn’t even need to drill) and installed short 4mm countersunk screws. Worked great for me.
 
I tapped out the 2 holes in the chassis to 4mm (didn’t even need to drill) and installed short 4mm countersunk screws. Worked great for me.

That's an interesting solution. Nothing else is bolted directly to the chassis though, I imagine it would strip before long.

Has yours held up pretty good? I drive my car pretty frequently.

The proper pins are on the way, I hope they fit.
 
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Track day 2

Comments:
Very short test day at the track. Car is jumping really nice, but I've been messing with the suspension all week (remember the dogbones have been popping out), and now the dogbones don't pop out but the car is pushing in the turns again, understeering. Just has so little steering on any power at all I have to drop off the power to turn any real corners. Acumen is rear position (stock) now. All the spacers/EXB red caps have been removed from the outer front A-arms so the camber is whatever the arms are at. Not happy with this but needed those bones to stop popping out - I have a lot less adjustment than I thought. Not too impressed with these ZOP power batteries so far...

Driver requests: More steering on power. Less understeer. Feels like I'm back to square one on the suspension.

Damage: Was having a bit of fun, flew off the track, and nailed a tree. Then the axle carrier block broke. I actually had the piece on order for a month and it's still back ordered ... so I just ordered all aluminum carrier blocks, differential cases and a few more bits of aluminum that go around the center diff. I don't want these things breaking.

Parts on order:
HRAAON21MA01
Hot Racing Aluminum Axle Carriers (front pair, replaces AR330187)
AON22MA01 Hot Racing Aluminum Rear Axle Carrier (rear pair, replaces AR330193)
HRAON11ETN02 Hot Racing 6S 29mm Modular Aluminum Diff Case (x3 for all three diffs, replaces ARA310983)
RCAWD Alloy center diff mount set (replaces ARA320499)
& Aluminum Center diff mount (replaces bottom H section of ARA320499)

Conditions: Cold, track was loose and moist/muddy

Vehicle Setup
Wheels:
Pro-line Badlands 1/2" offset
Curb Weight: 13.4 lbs
Battery: 2x 3s Harcase (760gr)
Front Diff: 10k, LSD max
Center Diff: 50k LSD min
Rear Diff: 3.5k, LSD min
Front shocks: stock height, 1,000cst, M2C ZRS bladderless, less upright position
Rear shocks: stock height, 1,000cst, M2C ZRS bladderless, ,more upright position
Upper A-arms: 1mm spacer forward position
Acumen Arm: rear position
Front camber -3 or so, caster stock, toe zero
Rear camber/caster/toe stock RTR








busted.jpg
 
@21STalion
Thank you for the links. The servo does require more amperage than many ESC’s and their BEC’s can muster but then again I’ve learned that a BEC (battery eliminator circuit) is a cheap switching device meant to reduce the batteries voltage for the servos to work but the voltage they produce is not a clean DC current. I’m going to try their BEC bypass harness that taps directly off the battery so there will be no limited amperage or voltage from a BEC and it will be 7.4 volts, not a weak 6 volts. The item I purchased is the BEC-bypass-JST-XH2 - HV2SV-J and I also got it from the same guy listed here. https://www.promodeler.com/extensions The direct link is here, https://www.promodeler.com/HV2SV-J He also sells separate small 7.4 volt battery packs to run your servos but I know you’re concerned about weight.

Here is some more good articles for you to read.

https://www.promodeler.com/askJohn/The-case-against-synthetic-voltage
https://www.promodeler.com/askJohn/BEC-or-dedicated-pack
https://www.promodeler.com/askJohn/talkRADIO/about-RC-servo-motors
https://www.promodeler.com/askJohn/Bypassing-the-BEC
https://www.promodeler.com/askJohn/about-pots-vs-Hall-Effect-sensors

Enjoy, there is a lot of good information here.

Thanks for the links.

Turns out my kids' RC packs are perfect little dedicated servo power supplies (2s 1100mAh) so I ordered the parts and will power the servo with the full 8.4v oh baby from a dedicated pack.

Was just talking to my electrician friend to figure out if I can use the balance leads as an additional connector to bump up the 5a limit from the JR connector.

That DS635BLHV servo draws 5.4a at 8.4V so that is technically more than the JR connector can provide...

Found it odd that ProModeler is working so hard to make sure the battery has large enough (or numerous enough) connectors but then do nothing for the leads for the servo end of it.
Very nice build.

Do you plan on keeping the T2T brace? I personnally think it is overkill with the M2C chassis, chassis brace and shock tower brace. I removed it on my Kraton. I like not having to deal with it when I have to wrench on the RC.

I'm keeping it on, can't seem to bring myself to remove it. On any day that I wanted to actually be competitive I would be dropping all kinds of things for weight but right now I need the durability to get used to driving the car more.
 
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Finally more parts are in! Things are taking forever these days.

So I have two setups. A basher setup with the Pro-Line Badlands (belted) tires which are 175mm (that's fairly large). They are much heavier than the backflip 6S and a little bigger in every way. Much like the regular badlands are slightly bigger in every way compared to the belted Katars (stock exb) wheels.

These wheels and hubs are installed on the basher setup. The weight is immense, but so is the capability. For track use I'll be using the 4.0" pro-line wheels with holeshots which are closer to 145mm...not to mention a couple pounds lighter.

Also installed at the same time were the M2C +5mm hub extenders. This along with the 1/2" offset hex adapters in the rear make the track super wide in the rear (how I wanted it). The fronts will have the 0 offset hex adapters to keep the steering correct. Only the rear is being widened. The front is staying normal talion width unless I decide to move to Kraton steering blocks. Which I might do. I have Kraton rear style on order to make the rear even wider if I feel I need it, which I think I do.



IMG_20211211_150946.jpg
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You can see the stagger in wheelbase front to back in the overhead picture. The rear seems to be about 30mm wider than the fronts now - oh baby
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Here you can see how the wheelbase gets wider:


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Weights of the parts:
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M2C lug nut is the silver one. Can't seem to get a second nut over it like I thought I saw some other people do. I prefer the HR closed dust cover lugs.

IMG_20211210_222944.jpg



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Next up, the A-Block updates for M2C racing finally came in.

I really liked this update even though it was fairly expensive because it saves quite a bit of weight overall and the build is stronger for it. A good trade.



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Weigh comparison of all the parts:

Unmodified plastic part
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Modified to fit M2C front end kit
IMG_20211210_203725.jpg



Old m2c part that comes with the kit:
IMG_20211210_203719.jpg

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m2c updated EXB part
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Original m2c hinge pins that come with the ki
IMG_20211210_205131.jpg



Updated hinge pins for the EXB's so everything fits
IMG_20211210_205137.jpg
 
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In case anyone wants to know what a the minimum weight is for a stock talion body...



IMG_20211211_211133__01.jpg




That means I have about 200g of body reinforcement, paint, stickers and accessories on my bashing body.... darn it...









Lastly, been working on fans, and getting separate 2s batteries installed to power the Receiver, Servo and Fans


IMG_20211210_223010.jpg
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Currently working on wiring in 2 dedicated 2S 1100mAh battery packs to power the Receiver, Servo, & Fans.

You can see here the receiver powered (and steering working!) even though there are no main battery packs and the ESC is not turned on.

Make sure to remove the red lead from the throttle cable to ESC because if you use a pack you don't need that lead to draw power from the ESC's BEC

Last step is getting some battery holders 3D printed or something... does anyone know what other people use to secure these batteries?

BTW the fans and the servo had WAY more power with the dedicated 2S batteries (and this EXB esc is 7.4V already). Even though they are in parallel it did feel like there was more power with the 2nd pack, even though that shouldn't be the case. But I guess that just means that it can use the extra pack for additional amperage.

dual 2s servo fan bat.jpg
 
Excellent thread with great detail.
Regarding using the Backflips, I was so happy with the way my 21 Talion EXB handles and jumps, I took the Backflips off of my circus performer flip/jump/tumble/wheelie happy Outcast and put a set of Katars (the unbelted version) from the Talion on it, now really enjoy driving it on track. The Talion is still my favorite.
I suspect you'll be going back to Katars (or at least Katar sized) rather than the adjustments and modifications to make the big tires work well. The bigger tires are not track+speed+steering friendly in my opinion. Jumps, appearance, break more parts, and ground clearance yes.
 
I use backflips lps (used, now they are broken) on my talion, I love those tires. They are about the same size as stock (+0.05in if I am correct) and they improve the handling by a huge amount.
My apologies if I've created confusion, I'm referring to stock 2021 Outcast 6s EXB Backflips compared to stock 2021 Talion EXB Katars. Massively different sizes.
IMG_4196.JPG
IMG_4197.JPG
 
Excellent thread with great detail.
Regarding using the Backflips, I was so happy with the way my 21 Talion EXB handles and jumps, I took the Backflips off of my circus performer flip/jump/tumble/wheelie happy Outcast and put a set of Katars (the unbelted version) from the Talion on it, now really enjoy driving it on track. The Talion is still my favorite.
I suspect you'll be going back to Katars (or at least Katar sized) rather than the adjustments and modifications to make the big tires work well. The bigger tires are not track+speed+steering friendly in my opinion. Jumps, appearance, break more parts, and ground clearance yes.
Totally, i have a seperate set of wheels and tires on order for performance. I think 1 belted Badland wheel weighs as much as all 4 Racing wheels
 
My apologies if I've created confusion, I'm referring to stock 2021 Outcast 6s EXB Backflips compared to stock 2021 Talion EXB Katars. Massively different sizes.View attachment 185620View attachment 185621


Yes, there are the larger backflips (6s) and the smaller backflips (3s) its the 3s ones that are almost the same as the belted katars. They are also almost identical to the proline badlands (non belted).


Katars are the smallest, non belted badlands are second, backlip 6s are next, the biggest ones on the ends are my latest pro-line badlands belted with the alloy hubs

Seems all the pro-line stuff is a bit bigger than the arrma stuff



Here are some comparisons pics:
IMG_20211208_015651.jpg
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