Talion Talion EXB Ultra Track Basher

[21STalion]

Finally, more parts! Castle 1717 1650kv

Was a little surprised by the weight - how little difference between the stock setup and the castle setup.



To be continued....

Think this is the biggest motor you can get on the EXB mount haha.
Kind of want to make a tiny foot piece to slip under.

Stock EXB gear including the heatsink (no fan, just like it comes stock)

Castle 1717 1650 motor & Mamba Monster X 8s ESC
only weighs 55g more that stock? Interesting....

 

[Arrma Addict]

I'm sorry if I missed it. What is the final weight of your Talion?

 

[21STalion]

I'm sorry if I missed it. What is the final weight of your Talion?

Hey there, thanks for asking, but unfortunately it's not done yet. Have been waiting for months on parts, it's all ordered, but not all has arrived.

I have two setups going. A full on basher setup with the massive wheels, and a racing setup with the super light wheels and less reinforcement.

Will have the weights of both setups posted January.

 

[Dan B.]

The heavier you are, the harder you crash. I’m interested in the final weight as well. There’s a whole lot of added weight on your basher setup. Especially with the wheels. MUCH more unsprung weight, gonna take a toll on all suspension components when your wheels take a hard hit. And wheels are what always take the first and hardest hits.

 

[Arrma Addict]

After doing a FULL beef cake myself, I realized I should have bought diffs + a few other bits from JRC and skipped buying the truck all together. I'm not picking on you (21STalion) or your build, it's epic. Just speaking from my experience, when my build was done I realized there where little to no factory parts left on my Kraton

 

[21STalion]

After doing a FULL beef cake myself, I realized I should have bought diffs + a few other bits from JRC and skipped buying the truck all together. I'm not picking on you (21STalion) or your build, it's epic. Just speaking from my experience, when my build was done I realized there where little to no factory parts left on my Kraton

Oh no, don't apologize. You are absolutely right. I wasted a TON of money on this build. Remember, I'm a total Arrma newbie, and brushless newbie. I ran HPI nitro for almost 25 years but this different system entirely. I had to buy the car, learn the brand, learn brushless, then finally build my car.

I've said it before, I could have easily saved a grand if I knew what I was doing before I started. But learning was half the fun, and like another forum member said, just consider it as the cost of tuition

Half the reason I did this thread. I collected all the data, you mind as well stand on my shoulders and skip half the trouble. Most stuff is Kraton specific, and yes, a lot transfers over, but a lot doesn't. And you only find out by actually doing it.

Also proud of my car being over 50% USA made parts too, although I would prefer if they were Canadian made, but we don't get many options for that.

Cheers!

The heavier you are, the harder you crash. I’m interested in the final weight as well. There’s a whole lot of added weight on your basher setup. Especially with the wheels. MUCH more unsprung weight, gonna take a toll on all suspension components when your wheels take a hard hit. And wheels are what always take the first and hardest hits.

Much more unsprung weight, and it does handle like garbage compared to the 140+mm class wheel, but the terrain capability is unmatched. Jumping is better too. The cushion of the tire also acts like an additional suspension articulation. The tire is bigger, but it also compresses more and takes more of the shock on the foam.

One of my biggest issues 'stock' was that the belted katar wheel assembly would crack or somehow break after only one or two packs. Maybe I'm just hard on the car, getting used to the power. Brushless is a lot faster than Nitro at 6s.

When I moved to the pro-lines (145mm), they had tremendously more sidewall and those wheels continue to perform pack after pack with nothing more than additional superglue each run.

My hope is that going with the monster 170+mm class wheel I will reduce my frequency of breaking the wheels.

Granted, the massive wheel assembly will cause undue stress to the suspension. Which is why I moved to HR for the hub bearing carriers. I am keeping my arms as my sacrificial pieces, I have a full set on stand by every time I go out. Would have preferred that other brand, Vivaton?, but it was too difficult to source the parts.

 

[21STalion]

Oh no, don't apologize. You are absolutely right. I wasted a TON of money on this build. Remember, I'm a total Arrma newbie, and brushless newbie. I ran HPI nitro for almost 25 years but this different system entirely. I had to buy the car, learn the brand, learn brushless, then finally build my car.

I've said it before, I could have easily saved a grand if I knew what I was doing before I started. But learning was half the fun, and like another forum member said, just consider it as the cost of tuition

Half the reason I did this thread. I collected all the data, you mind as well stand on my shoulders and skip half the trouble. Most stuff is Kraton specific, and yes, a lot transfers over, but a lot doesn't. And you only find out by actually doing it.

Also proud of my car being over 50% USA made parts too, although I would prefer if they were Canadian made, but we don't get many options for that.

Cheers!

Much more unsprung weight, and it does handle like garbage compared to the 140+mm class wheel, but the terrain capability is unmatched. Jumping is better too. The cushion of the tire also acts like an additional suspension articulation. The tire is bigger, but it also compresses more and takes more of the shock on the foam.

One of my biggest issues 'stock' was that the belted katar wheel assembly would crack or somehow break after only one or two packs. Maybe I'm just hard on the car, getting used to the power. Brushless is a lot faster than Nitro at 6s.

When I moved to the pro-lines (145mm), they had tremendously more sidewall and those wheels continue to perform pack after pack with nothing more than additional superglue each run.

My hope is that going with the monster 170+mm class wheel I will reduce my frequency of breaking the wheels.

Granted, the massive wheel assembly will cause undue stress to the suspension. Which is why I moved to HR for the hub bearing carriers. I am keeping my arms as my sacrificial pieces, I have a full set on stand by every time I go out. Would have preferred that other brand, Vivaton?, but it was too difficult to source the parts.

Lastly - I just LOVE the look of the tires being taller than the truck!

I love how the truck is 130mm tall and the wheels are 175mm tall. I would go even bigger if possible. I have a secret mission to build a special tierod piece that will allow me to drive upside down on 6s brushless. Zero suspension travel except for tire cushion but you drive at any angle.

 

[21STalion]

Castle system is on stand by because the wires are too short. Luckily, more parts came in!

HR Diff Cups

These things are beautiful!

HR Front Blocks to replace the plastic stock ones. I really wanted to keep these parts plastic but I've been waiting for like 3 months for replacement plastic parts and they just aren't coming. I ordered it a month before I broke it and I still had downtime because the part never came.

Furthermore with my REAR TRACK EXPANSION PROJECT

Kraton rear axels are longer than Talion

Yes, I have Kraton rear blocks coming to fix the gap.... Although it's plenty strong just like this.

 

[21STalion]

I cannot believe this, but we are close to being finally done.
It is done now aside from the Castle motor/ESC (which need longer wires and connectors), but I'm really happy to burn up the spektrum RTR system in the meantime. The "chassis" is complete. I'll get the weight shortly, this is for Basher Form.

For the Racing Form, there are different wheels and I will remove certain parts to make it legal (no ultra wide track), and omit a couple items to reduce weight (T2T brace among others). The Racing Form will be a few pounds lighter believe it or not (mostly wheel assembly). The smaller battery on the Racing Form will further reduce the weight - it's pretty incredible the difference between the two.

Also, I might be picking up a smaller, higher KV motor for the Racing Form as well - I've collected about a half dozen extra pinions for lots of tuning options with all my different wheel and tire combos. 5 different sets of wheels/tires and 3 different motors are planned, and I have all but 1 of the motors on the shelf already.

The final pieces are these HR Racing Kraton style rear hub carriers
Keep in mind there are Kraton axles in there, giving a few more MM which is why I'm using the Kraton hub carriers now. This beast is nearly 19" wide at the rear which makes it incredibly stable.

Kraton Style

Stubby Talion Style hub next to the longer Kraton Hub. You can see the difference in length since the longer Kraton axles are showing.

 

[Dan B.]

So, we’re still waiting…. In “basher” form, how much does this thing weigh?
But looking at everything you did, I guess it doesn’t really matter, because I can’t imagine you’re actually bashing that hard. Because at this point if you send it, crash it, or just generally go try and have fun you’re going to be bending a lot of expensive (and totally unnecessary) aluminum stuff. I have to tell you, it looks great but your approach to this seemed to be sort of a “how much money can I possibly throw at this truck at any expense” and you’ve done a great job at that. At the expense of durability, handling, top speed, and reduced run time. No offense, but that is not an approach that makes any sense to me at all.
And if you say you want to take it to the track, well… You might get spanked by a 12 year old with a box stock Slash LCG 4wd running 2s lipos. Unless you take off the 7 pounds you added to an already decent truck.
I was enjoying your build to a point, but IMHO you’ve totally gone over the edge. But I guess that’s a cool thing about this hobby, you just do you. Be happy, have fun, and be careful out there.

 

[21STalion]

So, we’re still waiting…. In “basher” form, how much does this thing weigh?
But looking at everything you did, I guess it doesn’t really matter, because I can’t imagine you’re actually bashing that hard. Because at this point if you send it, crash it, or just generally go try and have fun you’re going to be bending a lot of expensive (and totally unnecessary) aluminum stuff. I have to tell you, it looks great but your approach to this seemed to be sort of a “how much money can I possibly throw at this truck at any expense” and you’ve done a great job at that. At the expense of durability, handling, top speed, and reduced run time. No offense, but that is not an approach that makes any sense to me at all.
And if you say you want to take it to the track, well… You might get spanked by a 12 year old with a box stock Slash LCG 4wd running 2s lipos. Unless you take off the 7 pounds you added to an already decent truck.
I was enjoying your build to a point, but IMHO you’ve totally gone over the edge. But I guess that’s a cool thing about this hobby, you just do you. Be happy, have fun, and be careful out there.

If you are serious about racing RC you don't buy an Arrma, you buy a top end Kyosho or something that is actually designed to be a racecar from the ground up. You don't even need to upgrade it.

Every single upgrade is just a spare part in my opinion. I accept that every part will break, and the fancy ones just buy more time. Downtime is the enemy of fun. Almost every time I go out, I have everything I need to keep running. Max smiles per sunny day.

If you don't just love this stuff then don't follow.

Spent all day racing Sunday. Race weight was 4703gr - How much does your rig weigh?

I'll put up a video later.

 

[21STalion]

Here is the video from the track.
It's running on 6S here, but after plenty of testing I'm convinced 3S is currently faster around the track.

Car held up very good. It was nearly freezing and everyone was breaking plastic parts left and right. I broke an RPM shock rod end and a M2C hinge pin. Since I had every spare part imaginable each failure only cost me a few minutes and my car was the last one standing.

I was significantly faster around the track on 3s versus 6s. Car handles WAY better and the improvement was immediate. I don't have any 4S yet, but soon!




Here is the M2C part that broke - also my newest M2C part
m2c 3510 ARRMA 6S CAPTURED 1 PIECE HINGE PINS
Lucky I still had the none EXB design with me so I installed the new one at the track.

Castle system update:
Finally got the wires together, they were WAY too short but now they are awesome. Also included a separate connector for external BEC. Still looking for perhaps a 4S motor option as well...

 

[21STalion]

Car set-up from yesterday

Front diff - 10k maximum effect
Mid diff - 100k maximum effect
Rear - 3k minimum effect

Acumen stock - rearward

Arms are in the middle. With equal spacing front and back

Toe was messed up and changed during the day. Toe out is at maximum on the front. I will be reducing this.

Shock oil is at about 1000 cst but I'm going to go back to 2,000 rear (stock) and maybe 1500 front. I feel the m2c valving could use a slightly lighter oil but 1000 is too light

Results: I actually really like this diff set-up. The front feels a little stiff but the car was fairly controllable. One issue with the soft track was clogging the tire tread. Have the blue inserts on the S3 componnd and honestly I feel I need softer compound, stiffer inserts, and wider tire lug pattern.

The racing wheels really wake up the car. They are 100g lighter per tire compared to the belted Katara.

I'm keeping the aluminum hub Carriers, I'm sold on them. Wish i went with the lighter vivaton ones. Several people broke hub Carriers in the freezing temps. You get a lot more runtime with these so called useless heavy parts. Don't believe the naysayers. I didn't go with aluminum carriers in my other cars but they aren't pillow ball cars.

Only complaint was the battery. My 3s weighs more than the racing 4S batts. Also steering on power was weak, having to let off the throttle to make the corners.

I'm resetting up the car suspension based on lighter racing weight and one battery. Spring preload front and back are at 6mm based on my personal measuring method.

 

[Moirae]

Such a beefcake! Awesome build.

 

[21STalion]

Back at the track again today. Only managed to get through 3 packs. Lots of crashes, but no damages.

Notes: This time I went a little too far and my steering was a little too twitchy. It wasn't terrible, it was just beyond my skill level so I'll need to dial it back. The car was very competitive and we are all eager to race again Friday.

Setup:

• fresh 2000cst all 4 corners - thank my LHS for finally getting some in stock! No one seems to carry it here
• Removed heatsink and fan, motor isn't getting warm in the zero degree C days on 3S power
• Switched from a 15t pinion to a 23t pinion to make up for the smaller tires and less S ratings (motor still only barely gets warm)
• Caster; arms are all the way forward.
• Toe out, removed nearly all the toe out. I'm probably at -1 degree
• lowered ride height further compensate for all the weight reduction - still 6mm all 4 corners
• I put the wing and wing mount (obviously) back on because I rather protect the rear tower
• T2T brace is staying off and so is the carry handle, don't feel a need for these parts
• REALLY liking the HR Racing Alum hubs. All the screws came loose so make sure to go through it, but they are saving my butt in this freezing weather. They are staying, along with the hub extensions and kraton hubs. The extra track width is worth the weight IMHO

Weight without body: 4599gr

Changes for next time:

1. Will bring the arms further back for more caster and try again, but it will be the tiny half spacer because the car is pretty damn fine as is. Feels like it can turn around a quarter now I just need a bit more on center feel.
   

 

[Dan B.]

If you want more race batteries, check this out. You’d have to make some bullet connectors, probably.
https://www.amainhobbies.com/search...tm_content=/search?cID=1393&fs=2&fb=209&lg=fb

 

[21STalion]

If you want more race batteries, check this out. You’d have to make some bullet connectors, probably.
https://www.amainhobbies.com/search?cID=1393&fs=2&fb=209&lg=fb&utm_source=weekly_newsletter&utm_medium=e-mail&utm_campaign=2022-01-27-ptk-close-outs&utm_cid=4872439&utm_content=/search?cID=1393&fs=2&fb=209&lg=fb

Thanks bro but I'm in Canada so I cannot buy LiPo from USA. No problem to order them directly l from China though - who knows why?

 

[21STalion]

Another 7 packs at the track today. No breakages, last car standing again. On 3S this thing is really coming to its own, track is too small for 6S.
Tried out some new wheels, buddy style, looks a little goofy but this was my fastest day at the track yet. No problem taking the double jumps. If I keep running wheels this small I may need find a smaller spur, I'm already maxed out with a 23T pinion. Not that it needs it now, but it will likely with the sensored 1650 motor going in likely this weekend.

Same setup except higher ride height for the smaller wheels, RPM upper arms because stock EXB upper arms crack in the same spot over and over again. Running 3 spacer rear of the upper arms and 1 spacer in the front of the arm - still fiddling with this setting.

Also, finally down under 10lbs again.

Weight: 4508gr about 9lbs 14oz DIRTY lol

 

[21STalion]

Okay, so here is the thing.

Running at the track a few times I noticed the 4.0" Truggy Holeshot tires were getting clogged after a few laps, then I basically loose all traction and its slippy sliddy magoo time.

My theory is that since the track is so tight, we're not getting the wheel spin speed high enough to eject the soft damp soil from the tread. So therefore the smaller tire, with increased wheel speed at any given vehicle speed would better eject the soil, regaining tread in turn.

I could try to find a more coarse tread on the 4.0" Truggy 1/8th scale size, and I'm looking at some AKA I-Beam Super Soft at that size. But for now I'm also testing these buggy sized wheels.

When I switched to the buggy sized wheel I was getting the fastest laps of the night and it was staying more consistent lap after lap because the tread was cleaning itself better by being smaller and more coarse.

Now I'm also looking at smaller spur gear size and also a higher KV motor (sensored )since I maxed out the pinion size on this spur already

 

[21STalion]

3 Months of wheel and tire testing