Kraton Irresponsibly Overpowered

[chevys10zr2003]

Oh, right. Why the "1P" then as there is nothing in parallel...?

Anyway. As I've just purchased my first 4WD kit (yes, it's from Tekno), and it only cost around 1000 euros with the electronics, tires etc, I'm eager to spend some money on my Kraton. I want to make it _INSANE_. Tons of torque with a fair amount of speed. I'm thinking about a Hobbywing Max 5, maybe a 1900 kv motor like the XeRun 4274/4268 SD. But:
-Does a sensored motor work with a sensorless speed controller just as well as a sensorless motor with similar specs would?
-Are there any reasons why a sensored motor shouldn't be used with a sensorless controller?
-Given the choice between XeRun 4274 and 4268, which one should I go for?

I wouldn't mind going all sensored, but Hobbywing's sensored ESCs aren't waterproof.

I haven't messed around with pinions, but I guess that's just something you have to figure out by trying different combinations rather than over-thinking what the best combination might be. Feel free to offer nice motor/ESC/pinion combinations for INSANE power.

If it was 0p, that would mean that there was zero cells, meaning that there is nothing there.

What Tekno kit did you get exactly and what did you all get with it?

Make sure to check out https://www.teknoforums.com/ and start a build thread for your new Tekno too!!

 

[Jerry-rigged]

Oh, right. Why the "1P" then as there is nothing in parallel...?

Anyway. As I've just purchased my first 4WD kit (yes, it's from Tekno), and it only cost around 1000 euros with the electronics, tires etc, I'm eager to spend some money on my Kraton. I want to make it _INSANE_. Tons of torque with a fair amount of speed. I'm thinking about a Hobbywing Max 5, maybe a 1900 kv motor like the XeRun 4274/4268 SD.

MAX5 would be a bit of overkill for a 4274 motor. A MAX6 should handle any motor that will fit in a Kraton.

But:
-Does a sensored motor work with a sensorless speed controller just as well as a sensorless motor with similar specs would?

Normally yes. There are some sensored ESC's that won't work with sensorless motors, though.

-Are there any reasons why a sensored motor shouldn't be used with a sensorless controller?

Depending on the motor, ESC, and general setup, it may have some cogging at low speeds. But for bashers, generally this is not an issue.

-Given the choice between XeRun 4274 and 4268, which one should I go for?

Bigger can = bigger power. If you want "_INSANE_" power, then the 4276, or just up to the 4092...

I wouldn't mind going all sensored, but Hobbywing's sensored ESCs aren't waterproof.

But the Castle MMX is both sensored and waterproof, I think. It would work good with the 4276, but maybe pushing it with a bigger motor.

I haven't messed around with pinions, but I guess that's just something you have to figure out by trying different combinations rather than over-thinking what the best combination might be. Feel free to offer nice motor/ESC/pinion combinations for INSANE power.

 

[chevys10zr2003]

MAX5 would be a bit of overkill for a 4274 motor. A MAX6 should handle any motor that will fit in a Kraton.

Normally yes. There are some sensored ESC's that won't work with sensorless motors, though.

Depending on the motor, ESC, and general setup, it may have some cogging at low speeds. But for bashers, generally this is not an issue.

Bigger can = bigger power. If you want "_INSANE_" power, then the 4276, or just up to the 4092...

But the Castle MMX is both sensored and waterproof, I think. It would work good with the 4276, but maybe pushing it with a bigger motor.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think they are waterproof when ran in sensored mode, I think it may just be the sensor board in the motor that will fry but I don't know.

 

[Jerry-rigged]

Good point. And the HW XeRun sensored motor is not waterproof either.

As far as the MMX - Amain has this one the MMX page-

Product Use Statements:

• *Although Mamba Monster X and Castle brushless motors are waterproof, they are not intended for operation while completely submerged in liquid. They can corrode when exposed to corrosive materials, such as salt water. Always rinse the ESC and motor with clean water after exposure to corrosives or dirt. While the motor and controller may be waterproof, Castle suggests users confirm that the rest of their vehicle, including the batteries, servos, radio and chassis are also waterproof before exposing them to liquids of any kind.

 

[chevys10zr2003]

Good point. And the HW XeRun sensored motor is not waterproof either.

As far as the MMX - Amain has this one the MMX page-

The only factory waterproofed sensored system I know of is the Hobbywing AXE system but as far as I know, they only make them for crawlers and they use a different sensor connector.

 

[RxMonkey]

Oh, right. Why the "1P" then as there is nothing in parallel...?

Anyway. As I've just purchased my first 4WD kit (yes, it's from Tekno), and it only cost around 1000 euros with the electronics, tires etc, I'm eager to spend some money on my Kraton. I want to make it _INSANE_. Tons of torque with a fair amount of speed. I'm thinking about a Hobbywing Max 5, maybe a 1900 kv motor like the XeRun 4274/4268 SD. But:
-Does a sensored motor work with a sensorless speed controller just as well as a sensorless motor with similar specs would?
-Are there any reasons why a sensored motor shouldn't be used with a sensorless controller?
-Given the choice between XeRun 4274 and 4268, which one should I go for?

I wouldn't mind going all sensored, but Hobbywing's sensored ESCs aren't waterproof.

I haven't messed around with pinions, but I guess that's just something you have to figure out by trying different combinations rather than over-thinking what the best combination might be. Feel free to offer nice motor/ESC/pinion combinations for INSANE power.

I’ll try and help with the sensored understanding. I’m no expert so anyone else feel free to help or correct me if I’m wrong.

Brushless motors do not have contact inside. A brushed motor is always contacting between the armature and housing by way of the brushes. Since there is no contact (the very reason for greater power and efficiency) in a brushless motor, the starting off can be rough. When you squeeze the trigger and power hits the motor the electromagnets will start the motor moving with no regard for what position the motor is in. This means you have no fine control when very first getting going. This is why there is sensored setups. The sensor board inside the brushless motor can communicate with the ESC so it knows what position the motor is in to give it softer starting for a crawler or for a basher more refined smooth throttle response.

I personally see no need for a sensored motor on a basher. Maybe for racing where exiting corners and acceleration need to be done with finesse. If you’re blasting across fields, parking lots and off dirt piles, sensored is pointless in my opinion.

Far as compatibility. An ESC doesn’t care if a motor is sensored or not. It will feed it power and motor will turn. If you have a sensored motor and a sensored ESC and hook up the sensor wire between the two, they will communicate so the motor can operate smoother as I said above.

So a sensored ESC will run a sensorless or sensored motor. It will only operated sensored if both parts are sensored and hooked up as such.

A sensorless esc will run either a sensored or sensorless motor but ONLY as an unsensored system. It will start rougher as explained above.

I hope that makes sense. I think sensored setups are incredible for rc crawlers. I don’t race but I understand the need there. Outside those 2 areas I don’t see the need for it.

 

[RxMonkey]

A couple things:
I didn’t know some sensorless motors don’t work with sensored escs. Listen to Jerry, the man knows his stuff

I have run sensored setups in the water on crawlers. I used to take a mamba max pro, remove the case and put it in a mold with potting epoxy. It’d be entombed in a block of epoxy and waterproof. I’d open the sensored motor and paint a layer of the potting epoxy on the senior board fairly thin and it never gave me trouble dunking it many times over. Don’t know how it’d work on all types of sensored motors. Worked great on novak 18.5 crawler motors though.

 

[Jerry-rigged]

A couple things:
I didn’t know some sensorless motors don’t work with sensored escs.

That is kind of backwards - it is that (some) sensored ESCs are incompatible with sensorless motors.

Originally, all brushless ESC/motors were sensored, as this was the only way the ESC could see the motor's rotor position. The some smart person figured out that they could add come computer power and internal volt meters to the ESC, and then use the voltage feedback from in the non-energized coils as the moving rotor (magnets) to induces voltage in them to sense the rotor position ... (moving a magnets across a coil of wire will create voltage). Presto, 'sensorless' ESCs. But if the ESC does not have the extra internal feedback sensors, it can't run a sensorless motor. Worth noting, most all modern sensored ESC's will run both sensored and sensorless motors. There are still a few older designs floating around out there, though, that you need to watch out for, if you plan on running sensorless.

This is also why sensorless motors 'COG' - when the rotor is not spinning, the ESC does not know where the rotor is, so it just kind of pulses semi-random till it gets some feedback...

 

[stigi]

If it was 0p, that would mean that there was zero cells, meaning that there is nothing there.

What Tekno kit did you get exactly and what did you all get with it?

Make sure to check out https://www.teknoforums.com/ and start a build thread for your new Tekno too!!

So when it comes to 0P and 1P it's just a naming thing and has nothing to do with cells being connected in parallel. To me, 2S alone would suggest there are two cells in series, none in parallel, and I would call that 2S0P. 2S1P would mean two in series, and for each cell one in parallel, but noooooo, that would be too easy and simple. At least in my mind. (Although that's not how the cells are wired in parallel.)

I got the EB48.4 along with Hobbywing MAX 8 ESC and EzRun 4272 2200 kV motor (you can buy the ESC and motor together as a kit, saving 30 euros, instead of buying separately), Savöx SV-1272SG servo (.10 sec/416.6 oz-in @ 7.4V), Louise B-ROCK SPORT tires, Tekno aluminum servo horn and Tekno steel spur. There's very little room for the ESC, and even that MAX 8 has to have its screw mounts cut off to fit in the chassis. I'll have to browse the forum later. Thanks!

MAX5 would be a bit of overkill for a 4274 motor. A MAX6 should handle any motor that will fit in a Kraton.

Do you mean "overkill" as in it couldn't run a smaller motor properly, or as in "money wasted"? I think we have already established that money will be wasted. But I'm always looking ahead into the future, so going overkill now is better than regretting later. Say I wanted to use this ESC in another truck with bigger motor somewhere in the future, I'd rather buy a 1/6 ESC now for a 1/8 truck. I just need to know if it can run a smaller motor even if it was money wasted for this truck.

Bigger can = bigger power. If you want "_INSANE_" power, then the 4276, or just up to the 4092...

But the Castle MMX is both sensored and waterproof, I think. It would work good with the 4276, but maybe pushing it with a bigger motor.

Not really that familiar with can sizes, but I'm guessing 5xxx wouldn't be good on a Kraton, wouldn't probably even fit, right? I guess longer means more power even if the diameter is smaller, right? 4092 being more powerful than a 4276. I'm open to Castle, too. Had a Mamba Monster on my HPI Savage Flux. It had a habit of losing reverse if it got wet.

 

[stigi]

That is kind of backwards - it is that (some) sensored ESCs are incompatible with sensorless motors.

Originally, all brushless ESC/motors were sensored, as this was the only way the ESC could see the motor's rotor position. The some smart person figured out that they could add come computer power and internal volt meters to the ESC, and then use the voltage feedback from in the non-energized coils as the moving rotor (magnets) to induces voltage in them to sense the rotor position ... (moving a magnets across a coil of wire will create voltage). Presto, 'sensorless' ESCs. But if the ESC does not have the extra internal feedback sensors, it can't run a sensorless motor. Worth noting, most all modern sensored ESC's will run both sensored and sensorless motors. There are still a few older designs floating around out there, though, that you need to watch out for, if you plan on running sensorless.

This is also why sensorless motors 'COG' - when the rotor is not spinning, the ESC does not know where the rotor is, so it just kind of pulses semi-random till it gets some feedback...

Extremely nice bit of info here, especially for us techies who always want to know how stuff works. So the coils and the electronics create a sensoring system, that doesn't use a separate sensor. Of course not as accurate as using a separate sensor, but using something you already get even if you didn't want to (voltage induced by the moving magnets), is very nice and clever!

 

[chevys10zr2003]

@stigi Yeah I don't know exactly the reasoning behind the naming but that's the way it is. Maybe 2S1P makes it easier to figure out the total number of cells by multiplying. I don't know.

I have the MT410 and SCT410 so I know what you mean about the room being limited LOL. I wish I could combine Arrma's chassis size, layout and quick change differentials with Tekno's quality materials and machined parts to create the ultimate basher but every vehicle has its pluses and minuses.

For sure check out www.teknoforums.com. The admin over there is a pretty cool guy . @WoodiE

 

[WoodiE]

The admin over there is a pretty cool guy

Is there another admin on that forum that I don't know about?!

 

[Jerry-rigged]

I think we have already established that money will be wasted.

Greatest comeback ever... LOL

 

[warfield]

As Chevy said it does fit. It’s the absolute max the tray will take and the battery is like a brick in your hand. I mean honestly close to the size and weight of an actual brick. Bad thing is it tears the screws out of the bottom of the tray if you wreck and tumble. I’d suggest getting staying close to 5000mah personally. I feel that any extra performance it gives is offset by its massive weight.

I had the same problem with the screw coming through the tray. So i just added a washer under the screw to make it wider. it doesn't slip through the little hole anymore.

 

[RxMonkey]

I had the same problem with the screw coming through the tray. So i just added a washer under the screw to make it wider. it doesn't slip through the little hole anymore.

I’m not sure we’re saying the same thing. I don’t mean the screws rub the battery. I mean the 4 screws fall out of the bottom of the chassis. My assumption is that the screws are pulling out of the tray due to the weight of the battery pulling at them.

If you are saying the screws fall out the bottom where are you putting them? Between the tray and the chassis?

 

[warfield]

I’m not sure we’re saying the same thing. I don’t mean the screws rub the battery. I mean the 4 screws fall out of the bottom of the chassis. My assumption is that the screws are pulling out of the tray due to the weight of the battery pulling at them.

If you are saying the screws fall out the bottom where are you putting them? Between the tray and the chassis?

with my truck the entire battery tray flew off after a big jump. the tray didnt break its just the screws heads that holds the tray to the truck got yanked through the holes in the tray so in order to stop that from happening i put a washer in between the screw head and the surface of the tray so that it gives it more surface area to hold the tray down instead of just the width of the screw head. its hard to explain. im not at home so i cant put a pict on here. ill do it tonight if i remember when I get back to the house.

 

[RxMonkey]

with my truck the entire battery tray flew off after a big jump. the tray didnt break its just the screws heads that holds the tray to the truck got yanked through the holes in the tray so in order to stop that from happening i put a washer in between the screw head and the surface of the tray so that it gives it more surface area to hold the tray down instead of just the width of the screw head. its hard to explain. im not at home so i cant put a pict on here. ill do it tonight if i remember when I get back to the house.

Yes! That’s my exact problem. I’d you get a chance sometime post a pic. I’d really appreciate it! I haven’t lost a tray yet but I only had 1 screw left the first time it happened to me.

 

[Dauransx]

Why are people wanting to add max5 esc's for such small motors, from my research max6 is more then enough even for 1480kv's

 

[RxMonkey]

Why are people wanting to add max5 esc's for such small motors, from my research max6 is more then enough even for 1480kv's

The best kind of kill is overkill. I think many folks embrace rc and like to overbuild stuff. I completely agree with you. I used a max6 with the 4092 1730 and the whole setup is powerful and cool.

 

[Homey]

Good reading about your bashing adventures. Keep em coming. Try src road crushers for speed runs. Will not be disappointed.

H