castle 1717 1650kv vs TP 4070cm?

[Lennart]

I need some help choosing the better motor for castle mmx8s ESC. I want to build a 1/7 track car. Weight is probably like 5.4kg, geared to 70-80mph on 8s. Pricing for either combo would be identical here in Germany (420€).

1) TP motor with 1800kv or 2200kv, weight 650 grams, 75000rpm. So the TP motor could be geared lower than castle motor. But I think it has D winding, does that work well with the castle esc? At least the timing can be reduced from 10 degrees to 0, which should help with heat reduction. Does it have more power because it's slightly bigger?

2) The caslte 1717 motor is probably set up to work well with the esc, it only weighs 600 grams, 56000rpm. So it would need to be geared higher. But I also read about exploding rotors on that thing, so I am a bit nervous about 8s.

So what do you guys think is better for track use with repeated acceleration and braking? The price is identical so do you prefer one motor over the other?

 

[SrC]

Will you be on a Drag Track???
Geared for 70-80MPH on 8s? ... I don't know of any large enough "Circuit Tracks" that can handle those speeds even if it had Banked turns. And 8s might be overkill? You have a specific track in mind for your setup?
Regarding the motors and with no experience with them, I would say the TP is always the better motor. Especially the CM versions.
I run My 4s TLRT for instance at a 1/4 mile Velodrome bicycle track. 28 degree banked oval turns. I can barely keep the throttle pinned and I am doing 58mph steady for 12 minutes.
With my 6s Limitless on the same track, my PB , "Safe" top speed was only 65mph. And it required hard braking into the turns. Top speeds were in the straights. I was sling shotting out of the banks into the straights to get my PB speeds.
And my 6s Lim. geared setup is good for 98-100+ mph.

 

[morrjr71]

I know nothing about TP motors, but I have the 1717 in my Kraton 6s. It's a beast on 6s: I don't think I've ever gotten it to full throttle in the half-acre area I have to run the Kraton in. And the 1717 runs cool: without a fan, in mid-80-degree weather, I never got the motor temp over 120. And I had to try hard to get it that high. I have no idea how fast my Kraton can go because I don't have a large enough straight area to run it in.

 

[Lennart]

Will you be on a Drag Track???
Geared for 70-80MPH on 8s? ... I don't know of any large enough "Circuit Tracks" that can handle those speeds even if it had Banked turns. And 8s might be overkill? You have a specific track in mind for your setup?
Regarding the motors and with no experience with them, I would say the TP is always the better motor. Especially the CM versions.
I run My 4s TLRT for instance at a 1/4 mile Velodrome bicycle track. 28 degree banked oval turns. I can barely keep the throttle pinned and I am doing 58mph steady for 12 minutes.
With my 6s Limitless on the same track, my PB , "Safe" top speed was only 65mph. And it required hard braking into the turns. Top speeds were in the straights. I was sling shotting out of the banks into the straights to get my PB speeds.
And my 6s Lim. geared setup is good for 98-100+ mph.

I plan on running on some paved hiking trails which have some big corners, till now I have done this with a 6s Python (profile picture, this offroad location was actually too bumpy to see properly through the cheap FPV cam). And go-carting tracks, if I get permission. Velodrome bicycle tracks would be cool as well.
But I guess I will wait a couple of weeks and see if I really need such expensive equipment....

In case I now think I would go with 4070cm motor.

 

[Diem Turner]

I need some help choosing the better motor for castle mmx8s ESC. I want to build a 1/7 track car. Weight is probably like 5.4kg, geared to 70-80mph on 8s. Pricing for either combo would be identical here in Germany (420€).

1) TP motor with 1800kv or 2200kv, weight 650 grams, 75000rpm. So the TP motor could be geared lower than castle motor. But I think it has D winding, does that work well with the castle esc? At least the timing can be reduced from 10 degrees to 0, which should help with heat reduction. Does it have more power because it's slightly bigger?

2) The caslte 1717 motor is probably set up to work well with the esc, it only weighs 600 grams, 56000rpm. So it would need to be geared higher. But I also read about exploding rotors on that thing, so I am a bit nervous about 8s.

So what do you guys think is better for track use with repeated acceleration and braking? The price is identical so do you prefer one motor over the other?

I don't have a 4070, but I do have a 4080 2022KV and a 1717 1650KV. The 4080 is a beast but I did find it to get hot faster than the 1717. I had intended to try my Infraction at track racing this summer with the 4080, XLX2, 20/46 gearing on 4S but, unfortunately, it never happened. Maybe next year.

Yes, the 1717 does have issues with Kevlar wraps and exploding rotors, that's just luck of the draw. Some will, most won't. The TP CM motors have steel cased rotors which allows for a lot higher RPMs. As for Delta or Wye wind, don't worry about it. Castle ESCs work fine with both. On Delta winds just make sure to turn your timing down to 0° as they don't seem to take timing advance very well without producing a lot of excess heat that doesn't translate into performance.

It's hard to say which is better, but if I were you I would probably take a look at the 4070 1700KV motor.

BTW, welcome to the forum!! Great to have you aboard

If you don't mind me asking, where in Germany are you located?

 

[Lennart]

I know nothing about TP motors, but I have the 1717 in my Kraton 6s. It's a beast on 6s: I don't think I've ever gotten it to full throttle in the half-acre area I have to run the Kraton in. And the 1717 runs cool: without a fan, in mid-80-degree weather, I never got the motor temp over 120. And I had to try hard to get it that high. I have no idea how fast my Kraton can go because I don't have a large enough straight area to run it in.

Yes, I think I will rethink if I really need such a big motor...

I don't have a 4070, but I do have a 4080 2022KV and a 1717 1650KV. The 4080 is a beast but I did find it to get hot faster than the 1717. I had intended to try my Infraction at track racing this summer with the 4080, XLX2, 20/46 gearing on 4S but, unfortunately, it never happened. Maybe next year.

Yes, the 1717 does have issues with Kevlar wraps and exploding rotors, that's just luck of the draw. Some will, most won't. The TP CM motors have steel cased rotors which allows for a lot higher RPMs. As for Delta or Wye wind, don't worry about it. Castle ESCs work fine with both. On Delta winds just make sure to turn your timing down to 0° as they don't seem to take timing advance very well without producing a lot of excess heat that doesn't translate into performance.

It's hard to say which is better, but if I were you I would probably take a look at the 4070 1700KV motor.

BTW, welcome to the forum!! Great to have you aboard

If you don't mind me asking, where in Germany are you located?

I am located in Bonn, are you in NRW too?

If I go ahead and buy the parts I would choose the 4070. Regarding the kv I was thinking of 2200kv or 1800kv with the cm version. You say non cm and 1700kv. Will the 2200kv version get too hot? Even when geared down? And is cm not worth it?

 

[Diem Turner]

Yes, I think I will rethink if I really need such a big motor...

I am located in Bonn, are you in NRW too?

If I go ahead and buy the parts I would choose the 4070. Regarding the kv I was thinking of 2200kv or 1800kv with the cm version. You say non cm and 1700kv. Will the 2200kv version get too hot? Even when geared down? And is cm not worth it?

WHOA!!! There's someone on here that lives near me!! Hot damn!! That's nutz, I had started to lose faith I live in a small town just outside of Leverkusen.

As for the motor, the reason I recommended the 1700KV is because I've seen too many people on here rave about how awesome it is. I do like the CM motors for their steel cased rotors though, so the happy medium here would probably be the 1800 CM.

 

[Lennart]

WHOA!!! There's someone on here that lives near me!! Hot damn!! That's nutz, I had started to lose faith I live in a small town just outside of Leverkusen.

As for the motor, the reason I recommended the 1700KV is because I've seen too many people on here rave about how awesome it is. I do like the CM motors for their steel cased rotors though, so the happy medium here would probably be the 1800 CM.

Yeah not far away, I have zero friends with hobby grade rc cars.

The 4070cm 1800kv it is

I plan on driving on the Michael Schumacher kartbahn in kerpen, wenn man da aucf Google maps schaut haben die links oben such ne kleine strecke. Oder halt die MS kart eventcenter außerhalb der öffnungszeit. At some point I will ask the staff there...

 

[Diem Turner]

Yeah not far away, I have zero friends with hobby grade rc cars.

The 4070cm 1800kv it is

I plan on driving on the Michael Schumacher kartbahn in kerpen, wenn man da aucf Google maps schaut haben die links oben such ne kleine strecke. Oder halt die MS kart eventcenter außerhalb der öffnungszeit. At some point I will ask the staff there...

Yeah, pretty much same here. I have one friend. He has an RC car but I can never get him to dig it out of his garage.

Sounds like a plan on the motor If we meet up sometime you can have a go with my 1717 and see how it compares.

I bet a Kart track would be fun.

If you haven't seen it, there's an awesome RC race track in Dormagen. https://www.mckdormagen.de/
I've been there once to visit it and check out the facility and it's really nice. They're open Saturdays from 12-18 and Sundays from 11-18 o'clock.

 

[Lennart]

Yeah, pretty much same here. I have one friend. He has an RC car but I can never get him to dig it out of his garage.

Sounds like a plan on the motor If we meet up sometime you can have a go with my 1717 and see how it compares.

I bet a Kart track would be fun.

If you haven't seen it, there's an awesome RC race track in Dormagen. https://www.mckdormagen.de/
I've been there once to visit it and check out the facility and it's really nice. They're open Saturdays from 12-18 and Sundays from 11-18 o'clock.

No, wait. I read through some posts and I think I will go with the cheaper 4070 1700kv you actually said first. Since I am not speed running no cm version.
4070cm 1800kv 29v*214 max A = 6200Watts (but should be perfect for 10s lipo?????)
4070cm 2200kv 29v*264 max A = 7650Watts (would run better on 8s but probably run too hot with high kv and not just speedrunning)
4070 1700kv 29v*277 max A = 8000Watts (posts said it will run the coolest and max voltage also perfectly tops off for 8s) And 1700kv for 8s is not that low....

Oh a proper rc track in dormagen nice. Looks pretty good actually. We could drive there in the next months or so and crash a little around the track, don't really care about weather getting worse . But now I can only bring my underpowered 6s buggy

 

[Diem Turner]

No, wait. I read through some posts and I think I will go with the cheaper 4070 1700kv you actually said first. Since I am not speed running no cm version.
4070cm 1800kv 29v*214 max A = 6200Watts (but should be perfect for 10s lipo?????)
4070cm 2200kv 29v*264 max A = 7650Watts (would run better on 8s but probably run too hot with high kv and not just speedrunning)
4070 1700kv 29v*277 max A = 8000Watts (posts said it will run the coolest and max voltage also perfectly tops off for 8s) And 1700kv for 8s is not that low....

Oh a proper rc track in dormagen nice. Looks pretty good actually. We could drive there in the next months or so and crash a little around the track, don't really care about weather getting worse . But now I can only bring my underpowered 6s buggy

10S? What are you planning on doing? Do you have a 1/5 scale? I wouldn't run more than 4S on a race track, but that's just me. Don't let me stop you from doing what you do, 6S should be fun

Good choice on the motor imho, it's a good bit cheaper than the CMs. I have a couple of motors that you can try if you're interested. A "klein aber fein" selection, as we like to say. I have a Castle 1717 1650KV, Castle 1721 2400KV, TP 4080CM 2022KV and a TP 5680 1440KV big block.

But yeah, sounds like a plan. Am I correct in assuming that you have RC insurance? They do require it at the track.

 

[Lennart]

I am not sure myself yet what I plan on doing with an 8s track car, we will see how that goes...

I own a 1/10 sct truck and a 1/8 buggy. Have not made a huge rc investment yet .

Those motors you have seem to be a good selection. I will definitely come back to this when I have a 1/7 car.

Sadly not. I have not been to an rc track yet. Can you suggest me a cheap insurance? And I assume it is not possible to just run there in an "open practice session" with no regulations.

Have you run your infraction or non Arrma cars on a track before? Oh I just saw you are rig of the Month winner, where can I find that?

 

[Diem Turner]

I am not sure myself yet what I plan on doing with an 8s track car, we will see how that goes...

I own a 1/10 sct truck and a 1/8 buggy. Have not made a huge rc investment yet .

Those motors you have seem to be a good selection. I will definitely come back to this when I have a 1/7 car.

Sadly not. I have not been to an rc track yet. Can you suggest me a cheap insurance? And I assume it is not possible to just run there in an "open practice session" with no regulations.

Have you run your infraction or non Arrma cars on a track before? Oh I just saw you are rig of the Month winner, where can I find that?

I think 8S on a track is pretty mad if you ask me. I was planning on starting on 3S and then moving to 4S. I don't think you're going to go much faster than 50-60mph tops.

The buggy will probably be the better choice for a flat track. Just put some GRPs on there and you should be good to go.

Yeah for sure, you're more than welcome to give 'em a go.

I got my insurance through DMO https://www.deutsche-modellsport-organisation.de/en/insurances/application.html. It's quick and easy. I think I had my papers three days after signing up. The track in Dormagen has open practice every weekend if there's no event going on, which doesn't seem to be more than a few times every year. Insurance is still required however, even for practice. One of the club members will give your car a technical inspection to make sure it's all safe and then you're "off to the races".

I haven't run my Infraction on a track yet but I very much want to. I've focused primarily on speed running after I got some initial bashing out of the way after I bought it. I used to race dirt oval with a Team Losi JRX-2 and JRX-Pro back in the late 80s/early 90's, but that's many lifetimes ago. I took a 30 year break from RC until I bought the Infraction in January of 2021.

This was my first aftermarket body I put on the car after the stock Infraction body. I've since added a Porsche 917K, Ford C100, Lamborghini Aventador and Corvette C7R to my body collection. https://www.arrmaforum.com/threads/...ner-the-may-2022-rig-of-the-month-rotm.52558/

 

[LibertyMKiii]

You might want to look at building this car lighter for track use?
Maybe a 4s setup with a 3200kv TP motor?

If you look at most track race cars you won't find them running 8s.

I'd go for a high downforce dome style body

 

[SrC]

Yes, I think I will rethink if I really need such a big motor...

I am located in Bonn, are you in NRW too?

If I go ahead and buy the parts I would choose the 4070. Regarding the kv I was thinking of 2200kv or 1800kv with the cm version. You say non cm and 1700kv. Will the 2200kv version get too hot? Even when geared down? And is cm not worth it?

CM's are worth it IMHO. You are already in Premium priced territory. The CM Workmanship takes it to the next level. The small price diff is well worth it. Go all out with CM TP's. Just me. Motors can last for years and years if you know how to maintain them. Especially quality brands, where the Armatures are wrapped well, hand made, and balanced properly.
What I would do if going to a TP motor.
And when I need new motor BB's, I always go with Ceramics. And with some cheaper motors, I might even swap out the OE BB's for Ceramics out the box.
Cheap BB's contribute to short longevity of the armatures.
I always use a BLX Motor Analyzer to check and verify KV, Timing quality of the phase tolerances, and BB noise when new out the box.

 

[Lennart]

I think 8S on a track is pretty mad if you ask me. I was planning on starting on 3S and then moving to 4S. I don't think you're going to go much faster than 50-60mph tops.

The buggy will probably be the better choice for a flat track. Just put some GRPs on there and you should be good to go.

Yeah for sure, you're more than welcome to give 'em a go.

I got my insurance through DMO https://www.deutsche-modellsport-organisation.de/en/insurances/application.html. It's quick and easy. I think I had my papers three days after signing up. The track in Dormagen has open practice every weekend if there's no event going on, which doesn't seem to be more than a few times every year. Insurance is still required however, even for practice. One of the club members will give your car a technical inspection to make sure it's all safe and then you're "off to the races".

I haven't run my Infraction on a track yet but I very much want to. I've focused primarily on speed running after I got some initial bashing out of the way after I bought it. I used to race dirt oval with a Team Losi JRX-2 and JRX-Pro back in the late 80s/early 90's, but that's many lifetimes ago. I took a 30 year break from RC until I bought the Infraction in January of 2021.

This was my first aftermarket body I put on the car after the stock Infraction body. I've since added a Porsche 917K, Ford C100, Lamborghini Aventador and Corvette C7R to my body collection. https://www.arrmaforum.com/threads/...ner-the-may-2022-rig-of-the-month-rotm.52558/

For the 50mph range I probably just keep my 6s/4s Buggy, which I already have some GRPs for.

just uploaded the footage I shot while driving it, feel free to take a look (just over a minute long)

The "Private customer Adult" for 39,96€ is all I need? I have time to meet in Dormagen sometime in oct, nov ,dec this year or next year anytime.

You were driving in the late 80s?! Thats nuts. BTW I am 19 years old.

A nice small body collection...

 

[Lennart]

You might want to look at building this car lighter for track use?
Maybe a 4s setup with a 3200kv TP motor?

If you look at most track race cars you won't find them running 8s.

I'd go for a high downforce dome style body

Definitely makes sense. Watch your videos, like your projects very much.

I think I just want to build something faster than my 50mph buggy, that's why I thought of a 1/7 70mph car or so.
Want to experiment a little with downforce and wings too.

CM's are worth it IMHO. You are already in Premium priced territory. The CM Workmanship takes it to the next level. The small price diff is well worth it. Go all out with CM TP's. Just me. Motors can last for years and years if you know how to maintain them. Especially quality brands, where the Armatures are wrapped well, hand made, and balanced properly.
What I would do if going to a TP motor.
And when I need new motor BB's, I always go with Ceramics. And with some cheaper motors, I might even swap out the OE BB's for Ceramics out the box.
Cheap BB's contribute to short longevity of the armatures.
I always use a BLX Motor Analyzer to check and verify KV, Timing quality of the phase tolerances, and BB noise when new out the box.

At this point there are too many parameters I cannot overlook, I might just take a random decision
My fav 3 motors

CC 1717 1650kv : Good castle timing possibilities. Efficient with MMX8s esc. Sensored. Do not know if I need the extra diameter of the can for torque (5.3kg car)
TP 4070 1700kv : Many say it runs cool. 277 A rating. Max 30v rating just enough for 8s.
TP 4070cm 2200kv : 264 A rating and 34v max. When geared down by (17/22) pinion gear to match the 1700kv motor, will it run equally cool as the 1700kv ?? And those high motor rpm cause high electromagnetic resistance or something, so more energy inefficient??

But thanks for the general motor information and maintenance tips. Did not know that before.

 

[Diem Turner]

Definitely makes sense. Watch your videos, like your projects very much.

I think I just want to build something faster than my 50mph buggy, that's why I thought of a 1/7 70mph car or so.
Want to experiment a little with downforce and wings too.

Maybe I can help you out with that. I mean, I'm no aerodynamics expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I think I've gained a fair bit of experience with car setup and I've done some experimenting with my own active aero wing on an Infraction. 70mph is easily accomplished. Hell, the Infraction will do 80mph+ on 6S out of the box with the 25T pinion. I will say though, the craving for more is real. I have a road a 15 minute walk from my home that should be good for 150-160mph, maybe even a little more, though it does require waiting until after midnight so there's no traffic. My PB is 127mph on 6S and 122mph on 3S.

 

[Lennart]

Maybe I can help you out with that. I mean, I'm no aerodynamics expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I think I've gained a fair bit of experience with car setup and I've done some experimenting with my own active aero wing on an Infraction. 70mph is easily accomplished. Hell, the Infraction will do 80mph+ on 6S out of the box with the 25T pinion. I will say though, the craving for more is real. I have a road a 15 minute walk from my home that should be good for 150-160mph, maybe even a little more, though it does require waiting until after midnight so there's no traffic. My PB is 127mph on 6S and 122mph on 3S.
View attachment 243041

Any help will be appreciated, but in case I buy this expensive stuff, it will probably not be in the next few weeks.

This infraction just looks rediculous, in a good way. The wing mounts look like produced with a jigsaw, but the wing itself looks really smooth .
I once tried to make a wing with fiberglass (ended up with 20% fibre and 80% epoxy) looked pretty ugly and air bubbly....

And maybe I have a general misunderstanding. I want a "race" gearing for 70mph and 8s for maximum efficiency and just geared down to slower speeds. Like EV cars with 800v+ battery packs.
But since you did 127mph on 6s and 122mph on 3s the high voltage advantage is not as big as I thought. Did not know you were making videos and this road looks sweet. My PB is 107kmh with my 1/10 and 1/8 cannot imagine the adrenaline shaking when driving 200km/h plus.

 

[Diem Turner]

For the 50mph range I probably just keep my 6s/4s Buggy, which I already have some GRPs for.

just uploaded the footage I shot while driving it, feel free to take a look (just over a minute long)

The "Private customer Adult" for 39,96€ is all I need? I have time to meet in Dormagen sometime in oct, nov ,dec this year or next year anytime.

You were driving in the late 80s?! Thats nuts. BTW I am 19 years old.

A nice small body collection...

That's awesome bro!! Love that you're driving it FPV. Great stuff.

Yes, that's the one you need.

lol...yeah, I'm an old man. I'm 48.

Any help will be appreciated, but in case I buy this expensive stuff, it will probably not be in the next few weeks.

This infraction just looks rediculous, in a good way. The wing mounts look like produced with a jigsaw, but the wing itself looks really smooth .
I once tried to make a wing with fiberglass (ended up with 20% fibre and 80% epoxy) looked pretty ugly and air bubbly....

And maybe I have a general misunderstanding. I want a "race" gearing for 70mph and 8s for maximum efficiency and just geared down to slower speeds. Like EV cars with 800v+ battery packs.
But since you did 127mph on 6s and 122mph on 3s the high voltage advantage is not as big as I thought. Did not know you were making videos and this road looks sweet. My PB is 107kmh with my 1/10 and 1/8 cannot imagine the adrenaline shaking when driving 200km/h plus.

No worries, all in good time.

Yeah, the wing struts weren't easy to make with the tools I had at the time so they look a little rough. The whole thing was kind of an off-the-cuff piece of work that I just improvised with stuff I had laying around. The wing itself is made from 2mm and 0.2mm carbon fiber, some hand hammered aluminum with a Styrofoam core.

Race gearing for 70mph running on 8S won't be easy. 8S is a ridiculous amount of power. 6S would be better for that speed. The Infraction does 65mph stock on 6S with a 15T pinion and a 46T spur and a 13T pinion is the smallest you'd be able to fit. Translate that up to 8S and you're looking at 85-90mph which is going to be way too much for any race track. If you just put a 16T pinion in a stock Infraction, you've got 70mph. I still think that's too fast for a race track, but who am I to stop you? If you're set on going 8S, just go with a motor with a lot less KV. There's a lot of variables to consider, I guess, is what I'm saying.

As for the small difference between my 6S and 3S PBs, there's a simple explanation. I had just been into speed running on 6S for a few months and 127 isn't anywhere near as fast as it could go. Then the 3S challenge on the forum here got started and decided to move down to 3S and I'm glad I did. It taught me a lot about how to maximize my setup while using a modest amount of power. Had you told me before, I never would have believed that 120mph+ is possible on 3S with a 1/7 scale car. 4S is up next. At this point I'm certain that 160+ is possible on 6S.

When you first hit 100mph...that's when you get a serious rush and get hooked on speed running. The adrenaline is definitely real. You do get used to it though. You kind of have to so that you're calm when you're making passes. If you like, maybe we can get you into it too